Making Tough Decisions

Welcome to Throb, The Reality of Business podcast. Real business chat from real people without the shiny veneer of gurus anywhere near it. With your hosts Bertie Cordingly and Paul Chapman and maybe some guests along the route, we'll talk about our experiences of running a business, helping others run a business and sharing real stories based on real experience.

Hello, Paul. How are you doing?

Hello, mate. Yeah, I'm good. Thank you. Yourself?

Yes, I am very well. All the better, of course, for speaking with you.

And why wouldn't you be?

Exactly. On today's podcast episode. What are we talking about today, Paul?

I think we should talk about decisions because here on Throb, what we talk about is actually the stuff that really goes on in a business and kind of the proper day-to-day stuff. And I think probably, dare I say it, the stuff doesn't really get talked about. I think particularly with a certain kind of sector of business advice. But again, that's not us. We are all about the reality. And I think one of the odd things, one of the idiosyncratic things may be about business ownership. And again, we're not saying business ownership is better or worse, whatever. But I think one of the odd things is that a lot of it comes down to your ability to make decisions. And some of these decisions are really big, important decisions. Some of them are quite kind of small, mundane, day-to-day stuff. But your ability to make that decision, make the choice and move on is one of the things that I think, certainly from a bit of experience here, is something that kind of sets kind of good businesses apart from those that sort of kind of founder a little bit. And I think it'd be a useful thing for us to talk about today. And I think what might help is us to colour this with kind of some of the decisions that we've had to make, how they've worked, how they haven't worked, some of those really tough and otherwise decisions. Because I think it helps people to know that a other people are doing this, but also to clarify that success is that ability to move forward. Moving forward comes from making choices and choices are based on those decisions. So with that in mind, mate, talk us through it. Give us an example of a big decision you've had to make and how it came about and what came out the other side of it.

A big decision for me was when I was about 24, 25, I'd been DJing since I was 18, had other jobs and entrepreneurial stuff we spoke about, we'll speak about. But then it became time to settle down and start a family. So this is going back like 16, 17 years ago, perhaps. I'm trying to think how old my son was and it would have been in relation to this. But yeah, pre-family. And at that point, it became, it was quite a pivotal moment because it thought, right, no, to get serious, to get family, you need to have a real job. Yep. And it's, you can't go DJing forever. It's not, it's not sustainable, et cetera. So this is going back to 2004. And you may have heard me say that I had the idea for fillmybelly.com on the way to a job interview and didn't do anything with it for 18 months. Well, I'm going to fill in the gaps. What happened in those 18 months? Because I went to that job interview and got the job and the job was doing door-to-door sales, ironically. So that's what I did and was really fucking good at it. And actually really did enjoy that job as much as a bad rep, a door-to-door sales has really enjoyed it. And yeah, we'll talk about all the details of sales in another episode because I think it's quite an important subject. I enjoyed the job, but it always felt that I should be doing, always felt that I should be doing something else. After a few months, I was a manager then and ran my own sales team. Another big decision that I had to make was I inherited a sales team that had a lot of people that had just had the run of the place for a long time and weren't doing things as they should be done. Really good salespeople on paper, but when you looked into it, there wasn't really the substance behind the sales. It practices that I didn't agree with and had to make a lot of tough decisions then. I probably got rid of half the team. Looking back, was it right or wrong thing to do? Could I have managed them a little bit better? Possibly. But a decision had to be made. I made that decision and the team became better as a result. So sometimes I was very inexperienced then. I don't know whether it was looking back now to review the evidence as such that it was the right decision or the wrong decision, but I had to make a decision. What I couldn't do was just let that behaviour continue because it just spreads. There were decisions that needed to be made and I made it. I think that's sometimes the point. Sometimes if you can see the decision that's there, you can't just ignore it. You have to make it. You can't avoid these things. They never get better without action.

I think it's interesting that it's the decision behind the decision, if that makes sense, I think is often quite key. And I think this goes back to something that we've chatted about previously is that what is this business there to facilitate? What is the thing? And if this thing, this person, this employee, this contract, if this thing doesn't support that, then at that point, you've got a question, how serious am I about that importance to me? If I'm serious, I've got to do something about it. If not, then I just let it go. But I think the reality is for business owners is that if you're not super serious about it, you may as well not be doing it. But if you are, then the decision's there. I've got almost the reverse of your going into employment. And I think I got into employment, not by accident, but I didn't necessarily think if I was going to do this and do this, I did a job and then the next one. And I never really thought much more about it until one day, I remember, again, my old boss had spoken about it before, a really astute guy. He was doing a presentation, I was watching, and he talked about what do you want to earn? And effectively, long story short, he produced this equation that you could work out what you wanted to earn. And I did it, did it there and then, and it was almost toxic because I looked and think, look, this is what I want. This is a lifestyle I want. This is the kind of money I want to do that. I need my boss to pay me, I forget the maths now, something like three times more for half as much work. And it was a really serious, it wasn't like a flippant thing. But I looked at this and then I remember taking a piece of paper and sliding it under a load of other papers on my desk because at that point, yeah, there's no way I could go to my boss and say, hey, did I'd like triple money, but I want to work half as much. And it becomes really toxic. But from that moment, I had this really big decision of do I compromise? Or do I do something about it? And I'll be honest, I compromised for probably another year, if that's the right phrase, but it was there, in the back of my mind. And you think, yeah, that was a huge kind of decisional, maybe not a word, decisional point, where, okay, at that point, even though perhaps I didn't know it, I had taken the decision that I had to have a different way of producing a lifestyle, even though I love the job. And I think it's that then again, I still remember the day that actually that ticked over into, I'm sorry, boss, I've got to go. Because, you know, I loved it. I, you know, kind of ups and downs every job. But I think looking back particularly, it was a good place. I learned insane amounts, just insane amounts. And, but it was a really, I suppose actually a time, it was a difficult, but very easy decision. Because you almost, I don't remember the phrase, almost run out of excuses for things. Do you know what I mean? You think we'll do it then.

Yeah.

And I don't think there are excuses. But actually, I didn't want to enough, possibly, until the point that I wanted to enough. Does that make sense?

Yes. It does. And did you find that like, when you've made that decision, but speaking to people about it, like they thought you're a little bit crazy, as if they couldn't see, because you've spent a lot of time agonising that. But to say to somebody that, oh, I'm just going to leave my job and go and work for myself, for example, it's almost like, you're crazy. Why would you do that? You've got a good job. You should be happy doing that. And it almost makes you feel a little bit selfish or ungrateful sometimes, I find with those sorts of decisions. Have you experienced that?

Yeah, I think so. I think it's slightly different, because I was in a really, in a kind of an entrepreneurial world. My boss was a kind of a top entrepreneur. I spent a lot of time with other such people. So actually, there was perhaps less of it there. That side, kind of a lot of the new side, I think kind of people thought I was crazy. You know, I think kind of certainly some friends that thought I was crazy. Realistically, I went into it fairly naively, fairly, not arrogantly, but I've always believed that I can do it. You know, I'm arrogant enough to think, I'll find a way. I don't know if arrogant's the right word, but I knew I could do it. Although perhaps naively, you know, and again, in another one, we'll have a conversation about my first year tax bill. That's a great conversation to have, a great kind of business learning there. But yeah, I think a lot of people thought I was odd for doing it. I think a lot of it, because it's a good salary, good life. And there's a few things that kind of crept in over that, and it just started to eat away a little bit more. And you think, you either decide to grow a pair and get on with it, or you decide to settle. And I'm always a little bit nervous about settling. And it's, yeah, it was, so yeah, it was both an easy and quite a complicated decision, really, because I timed it, which perhaps looking back, I wouldn't do again. I timed it with the birth of my first boy and not sleeping for four years and starting a business. There's not necessarily kind of compatibility there. But again, everyone's got a challenge kind of thing, haven't they? So I think that as an initial

decision, it was a massive one. Yeah, I'll cut in there, Paul, and just because I think I've got something relevant just to add to that, because I did have that experience about people saying I was crazy, because as I said, this was like an 18-month gap. And when I went into that job, I did go into it thinking, I need a proper job. It wasn't like, oh, I'm just going to go and do something to just fill the gaps. It really felt like it was a massive decision at the time to not be self-employed anymore and joined the working world. But as much as I enjoyed that job, I didn't enjoy being in a job. And it wasn't mine. I didn't own it. And that feeling of wanting to be an entrepreneur, etc., was still there. That feeling that when I know and other people know, etc. So yeah, I think if you've got that feeling, you know exactly what it is. So after a while, the fill my belly idea was still burning, and then really wanted to test it. So got like a very basic, like, what do you call it? A presentation together, went out, sold it, even though the website didn't exist. People wanted to buy it. So then decided, this is what I'm going to do. Bear in mind, I had no website, had no business, just had a few customers that had paid for it, which actually is the right way to do this. I advise people to do it right now. It's like, but telling people, so then I went on that Monday and handed my notice in. So people thinking I was crazy. It was like, you're now a manager, like you've only been a manager here for nine months. You could be the area sales manager. It's not what I want to do. But you've got such potential. When I said I was a good salesperson, like I was literally, at that time, the top salesperson in that company. And then I remember applying for the job. There was other people that had been there years, and everyone all thought they were going to get it. And there was me, the new kids, who got the job for the area sales manager. That's not me bragging, but that's just how it was. Their perception was like, why would you leave it? Why would you leave this amazing job? But it wasn't for me. And I wanted to try this other thing. So even though that on the outside was a big decision, it didn't feel as big a decision to me as it did to other people. It was people did say I was crazy. And maybe I should just stay there a little bit longer. But as far as I was concerned, I'd been out, sold the product, people wanted to buy it. And there was no way that I could execute on that plan whilst trying to do that job. So yeah, so left and then launched for my belly like three, four months after that. So that was March. Yeah, about four months after. So really got my head down and executed on that plan. So that was another big decision to leave employment. But this is the thing with this. They felt big and life changing at the time. What I now learn is, learn since then, is that anything can change just because you put a stake in the ground doesn't mean that it's there for life. You're entitled to change your mind. You're entitled to make new decisions based on the learnings that you have from those existing decisions. Went into employment, yes, thought it was forever. But turns out actually it wasn't. And there is nothing wrong with that. There's nothing to be ashamed of that. So if you've got a decision that you feel, if you've said, yes, I'm going to do this, and then you've been at it six months and think, actually, this isn't really for me, then change your mind. There's nothing wrong with changing your mind on a decision. Make a new decision. That's the beauty of all this.

I think so. I think kind of interestingly, like I say, nothing's final. Nothing is, you know, I mean, I've got folk that have gone in and out on employment and jobs and businesses and all. I suppose as you drill down, there is only one decision. There is only one decision. What is my commitment to have the life I want to have? And I think that's the only true decision that business owners and or employees and I suppose everyone has to make. What is my commitment to that? And there'll be degrees of that in all sorts of different things and kind of family and all these kind of other stuff. But that is that singular decision. And I think, you know, this is, you know, similarly, the reverse of you, a kind of subsequent, kind of enormous kind of keep me up at night, stress me out for months kind of decision was one to effectively split the business that I had. As I came out of employment and kind of set a business, set it up with a friend of mine, we built a business. It did very well. And it, but it kind of things change as these things always do kind of business partner move to the other side of the world, which was brilliant, but it just, it changed the business. It changed how it was. And I ended up with kind of probably a couple of years of times where I just hated it. I think mentally I was in a really dark place because just, yeah, looking back, mate, it was crazy really that you let it get that far, but it's a bit like, you know, old girlfriends. You have girlfriends at the time, it's fine. It's only afterwards where your mates just go, what were you thinking? And you know,

Interesting. I'm just going to, I'm just going to add to this, Paul, sorry to interrupt your, your story, but we haven't known each other for that long in the grand scale. Maybe three or four years. Yeah. So, so yeah, I can't remember exactly what this was, but I remember having this conversation with you about making this decision. I remember exactly where we are. And I can remember like walking down the street and just say, like you've made that decision. Now just do it. And I could see, it was a little bit awkward because I didn't know you as well as I did now, but it was very clear to me from what the stuff was that you needed to make that decision. And you'd agonized over it and you were going back and forth. And then once you made it, I remember speaking to you months after and you were like, best thing I ever did. Best thing I ever did.

Yeah. It's true. Actually, I didn't kind of, I haven't thought about it. Yeah, I do. I do remember that time because I think it's a lot easier to get into a business than it is to get out of one, particularly if you're doing it with friends and all this kind of stuff. And it was, you know, it was a massive decision, but I still remember being sat on a beach in Suffolk with Amy and just what are we doing? What am I doing? How have I got to this point? How have I got to a point where everything was this kind of dark and it's hard? And I suppose you got to it because lack of that first initial decision of look, what is this kind of contrary to the life I was? And it had, but everything changes. There's no kind of blame apportion to it. It's reality of it. But, you know, that was a massive decision to ring my business partner and say, look, we've got to find a different way. I can't, I literally, I could not go on anymore. I was, and it was hugely, enormously tough, but literally, you know, doing that, making decision, working it to effectively kind of, you know, buying the business, you know, buying the business and kind of moving it on was, it was a, I think I told a billion other cliches, but it was that first step of the rest of my life and it wasn't easy and it didn't, it's not like it suddenly changed overnight, but you suddenly, it just, it, you know, it would have been really, it would have been easy and really difficult to not make that decision. It would have been really easy or to put it off. And I think ultimately it have always got to a time where that business had to change in whatever format, but you know, I think it would have been really easy to put it off. But I think it's that initial commitment. I'm here in business to create a life for Amy and the boys and me and to have all that and all the different kind of facets of that and time I put into it and all that kind of stuff. And we've said, I think on a previous podcast and how it's changed over time, but that is, it was a gargantuan decision. It was probably the biggest kind of all time really. And I think it's, I'm so pleased I made, God, it was tough and it's tough on everyone. Yeah. But it was, I'm so pleased that it, you know, and it's led me to the next step of the next step. And I suppose that that's the point of this. I mean, interesting and I'll shut up in a second, not only a year after that business that I wanted to keep as it were with the clarity that kind of a new situation comes, it actually led me to the very clear decision that this wasn't the right business. But again, a year, I forget a year, 18 months later, I ended up shutting the business down, even though it was still making money, even though it had kind of clients there, even though, and I think particularly I loved it. I loved working with those clients. They were brilliant people. I just, I loved everything about it. But the simple truth was that business was never going to get to a place that I closed kind of income wise, et cetera. I wanted it to be because I wasn't the right person to do this. I don't have the skills needed to do that. The bit that actually gets it to there. And as such, kind of every kind of hour I spent in it was actually taking me further away from that thing that I really wanted to achieve. And again, that was a really, okay, another big decision to kind of, you know, as I get older, I'm getting increasingly tighter. So I don't like to walk away from money, but the reality was it wasn't going to get me to where I wanted to get to. And as such, back to that initial decision of, look, how much do you care? How serious am I about this? What I want to have? And I'm pretty serious about it. And at that level, it's at that level, it becomes an easy decision because the only decision is to walk away. Now, clouded by a lot of stuff, and it makes a very tough decision. But if you can get back into this real truthful black and white of, look, what am I serious about? What I want it to be? These decisions are, I suppose, easy to make, difficult to take.

Yeah. I think there's something really interesting in the stuff that you were saying. So I'm just going to take you a step back on in that decision-making process, because you were saying that you were in a dark place. And you mentioned that a few times about being in a dark place. Do you think it's fair to say that you're in that dark place because you knew the decision had to be made and you didn't make it?

Yeah. Oh, that's a good question, mate. Yes, I think so. I think there's probably two stages of it. I think there was a stage where I convinced myself we could make it good, that actually we're going through this and there was another side to it. It's only when I took, I stood back and said, we've been saying it could come good for quite some time and it's never quite got then. It wasn't bad, but it never. So I think, yeah, I think probably subconsciously, yes, I always knew, I think probably, you know, probably when the change first showed its head, as it were, probably if I'd had the guts at that point, I should have said, brilliant, that is great. Probably change of things. Let's work out a way to do it. But you don't do that because you want to make it work and for loads of different kinds of reasons. And I guess if I'd had the guts, you'd probably do that then. But although I don't know, maybe you do think you can make it work, but yes, I think you are probably right. I think probably a lot of that, a lot of that stress came from... Yeah, not actually, yeah, not making the decision.

It's only because I see that and I think that's really, it's a really common thing. And I think sometimes it's, you create, as soon as you think about something, like every single scenario goes through your head. And then obviously with a decision like that, there's a lot of guilt attached to it. And as in like having this conversation with a friend, we've built a business together. And it's like what I was saying earlier, it's that you've got far, and I had that guilt as well, but just handing my notes into a job, even though technically it's just a job, but it's they've given me an opportunity, they've made me a manager and all that sort of stuff. So it's now I've got to tell them that I'm not really interested. And it's a very similar thing. But yeah, going back to that, sort of the time that you were stressed, I think even though then the decision might not necessarily have been to exit the business, I think there was still a decision that needs to be made. If you're not happy, and something's not working, the decision then is maybe to have a conversation and say, look, right, something's not working now. I'm not feeling great about this. We need to change this. Let's see how we got on for three months or something or six months and then like review. But it was almost like it was that let's, yeah, I think it can get better. But what was put in there to change it? Do you see what I mean?

Yeah, I think so. Yeah, because I remember having the conversation just there, actually, because business partner kind of moved across the world and then came back. And I remember having that conversation of, look, this just isn't, it's not working for me. And I forget the details of it. But I think, you know, that's it. I think the reality is, it couldn't work in its new format, which is neither good nor bad nor there. But I think it's probably linked to something that I think a huge amount of business owners do, which is they hold on too tight. They, wrong phrase, they care too much about their business. They forget that it is only a thing to facilitate a result, a lifestyle, whatever it is. And I think you and I, which is before, you see this all the time that people are just holding on too tight. You know, I can think of, again, a guy recently, he's got two businesses. One, he loves, one makes him an enormous amount of money. The one he loves makes him no money, causes him to stress, drains his income, drains his life, drains the other business. And that's that kind of, and you know, he has now moved it on and you think, but that's, and it's so easy from the outside to do it. And again, this is why it's, you know, kind of slight tangents. This is why it's so important that you surround yourself with good people. You know, I think about our network, we've got some brilliant people that I can talk to about stuff. I think take it, getting an outside pair of eyes, getting a separate kind of ignorant pair of eyes to look at your business and to ask some difficult questions. But again, it does come back into look, what do I want this to do? Because, you know, you don't, you only kind of fire someone, you only kind of change a contact if it's not helping you to move to that thing. And it's really important to not hold on too tight, but that is possibly the most flippantly stupid thing you can say to anyone that's built a business from scratch and loves it and pours their heart and soul into it. And it's tricky.

Yeah. There's generally a lot of questions that you need to ask to actually, yeah, figure out if that's what's happening, isn't it? The holding on too tight. Because I don't know, were you holding on too tight to your business? I don't know whether that was, yeah, I suppose you wanted it to work,

but it was for a while. It's like I said, kind of, you know, writing was probably on the wall for some time in all sorts of different kind of ways, but you don't, you think you work through it. You think you work through it. You think you work through it. And it is, it's, yeah, I think there is an angle here where perhaps I think I've said before people hold on too tight. People almost care too much. They forget that it is a means to an end. And don't be that flippantly, you need to enjoy it. You need to be part of it. You need to, and this is the other kind of side of it is that there are times when you need to buckle down and fight through some pretty kind of tough stuff because it's there, but there are also those times where it's never going to be a thing that achieves what you want it to be. And again, let's have the right people around you, get some advice, get some external input, get someone who's not close to your business to have some input into it. Cause it's, it's draining. I can think of lots of folks that actually, I can remember one guy, he, he always wanted a big business. You didn't really know why he wanted to be a business, but I think, I think it was an ego thing, which is perfectly reasonable. That's not a bad thing, but he used to earn two or three times as much as a solo guy in his back room doing what he did. With a load less stress, a load more time and a load more happiness than he did when he had a business with staff. And it is, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's that mean to an end thing, isn't it?

It's a mean to an end. Yeah. Yeah. And I just listened to you and yeah, by all means tell me you disagree. I think there's always a decision to be made. As soon as there's something that's bothering you, you either decide to do something about it or yeah, decide not to, but if you're going to decide not to do something about it, then at least you, you've either got to just let that go. It's a problem in your business, but you can't just let something fester and just continue. I think that's where problems can happen. And I personally believe, and I'm a lot better at this now than I used to be. I'm a big believer in taking ownership of all problems. So even if it's not something that's my fault, I will try and find a way to make it my fault because that then gives me the control to be able to deal with it. And yeah, I think taking ownership of a problem is, it really helps you because what I see a lot is people say, oh, I can't do anything about that because that's so-and-so's department or it's, that's, that's someone else's problem. It's a supplier problem. It's like, you deal with it, find a new supplier. There is, there's always something that you can do. And I think taking ownership of the problem really helps you work on it and make a decision. So we can talk about that

much more in the day. I think just the interesting thing about that is the fact that actually you've said, I forget where you started, but you know, but you know, I think a lot of this does come from experience in business because I was, I was, I don't know, two or three years into business and I'd run it and I'd run businesses for other people and done some kind of really good stuff there, but I couldn't see the decision. I know you said that there's always a decision, but I think there are some times where, whether subconsciously or unsubconsciously or consciously, probably, it's probably the other one, is you just, I do think there was a period of time where I didn't see the decision or perhaps I shut out the decision because I wanted to make it work. And I think, and I think there was, there is, there is so much in businesses experience, kind of so much of businesses experience and time and the ability to go through a load of things. So you can look back and have that kind of thing. But I think this is, again, back into where we start to probably, this is the important, the importance of make decisions based on experience. But I suppose it's, you can't, because sometimes it's got a gut reaction almost, but it is, it's a tricky old thing. It's a tricky old thing. But I was going to ask you, have you ever not, because I know you are, you're like you say, you own everything in your businesses. Have you ever not taken a decision and regretted it?

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, completely. And that's what I was just trying to think about. And there's probably loads more examples I can think of, but I was thinking back to still my belly days when like I knew the company that I was working with at the time that was doing our website were absolute potatoes. Like they were just useless. And, but it was one of those things where they became like almost friends and stuff like that. And it was just difficult. And I knew I needed to make that decision, but left it far too long, but left it far too long. And there's loads of things like that. Like I've had it before with accountants and stuff like that. And I'm just, you're just giving just subjective things that people can probably relate to where the service you're getting isn't great or whatever, but you just leave it. And then, and then ultimately, when it comes to a point where you really need that commitment from somebody that it just messes up. So yeah, I am far from perfect in this thing. And it's, I think with anything like this, like I say, I try and take ownership of stuff. It's a practice and it's a difficult thing to do. It's not something that you just become brilliant at, but I'm aware of it. And I'm, and I'm aware that when I do shift blame, which I don't think I do very often now, yet it's very conscious. Whereas I'm just trying to think maybe examples where I've done it myself, but yeah, very quick to blame others for mistakes and things like that. So-and-so's mistake or like, I'm now blaming that web company, but I suppose I'm not. At the time, I would have been blaming the web company for the mistakes and like, Oh, they've done it again. Oh, they've fucked up. They've done this. They've done that. Actually, it was my fault. I was the one that was paying them. I was the one that didn't have the difficult conversation. I could have stopped it. And that's what I mean by taking ownership. So I let that continue for a very long time until it got to a breaking point. And then it was a massive mess afterwards that then had to be unpicked that took time and effort and energy, which I didn't need to be expelling and expense when actually reckoned that taking ownership of that problem earlier on would have been the far better. Yeah. That's a better thing to do. And yeah, now I recognize those things a lot quicker and I recognize them a lot easier with someone else's business as well. As in, you can, it's very quick to see. And I can tell you when you know you've hit the nail on the head, it's like you haven't, sometimes when you're saying it to somebody, you haven't even finished your sentence and they know what you're going to say. And it's like, if someone would have said to me during those times, actually, Bertie, have you ever thought of changing your web company? It's the penny drops. It's very easy to see from the outside, but you put up with things. You've got your firefighter, you've got more important things to deal with, but often those problems do come back if left unchecked and bite you in the ass with much bigger teeth than they were doing originally. I don't want to get into semantics

in this, but do you think you made a decision to not to make a decision? Yeah. Did you think, look, I know there's a web kind companies, it's not doing it is, look, I've got bigger fish to fry. I'm not going to do anything. Or do you think you just, it was a time where actually you shied away

from making a decision? Yeah. I think I shied away from making the decision more than anything, or maybe was aware of it and thought, actually, it's not the biggest thing to deal with right now, when actually it was. But I think it was probably the first thing, almost like I didn't take ownership of that decision. Yeah. So, and it sounds really obvious when you say it out loud, but I think probably a lot of people can relate to that as in, it's very easy to blame somebody else. And yeah, I blamed them. I still have the conversation, like, it's not that I didn't call them out on it. So I was still like, look, you fucked up again, what are you going to do about this? And just almost just rolled with it, but didn't actually take that step back to think, okay, things are a mess now, I do have another option here. And that option is to make the break now and get into bed with another web company or hire my own web developer. Or there was lots of options there. I didn't really think through, I just went with the options that were in front of me without really considering what those decisions were. But yeah, it didn't feel I owned the problem.

So what's our advice to help people make decisions then?

I think if you're feeling, if you're feeling that there's something not right, then there probably isn't something. So what you were saying before, you were in a dark place. There's something not right there. There's some action that needs to be taken. And it's not necessarily obvious on what that action is. I can completely relate to that situation, Paul, because there's been many times I'm talking about business, personal, whatever, where almost like it's just been like a huge weight. And sometimes what the decision is, you don't know the decision is, and then you have lots of guilt associated with it, especially if it's getting rid of someone or like closing a business down, for example, all things that I've had to do. But the more you agonize over this, and you more you're trying to analyze it with all these worst case scenarios, because that's by default where your brain goes to, you go to the worst case scenario. It's all if I do this, then all this is going to happen. Or it's yeah, you do. It's like when you think of a going on a plane, you change someone that's scared of flying, it's the very naturally think of the last plane crash that probably happened 10 years ago or something like you go to that worst case scenario, what if it crashes, which is the safest form of travel on the planet, it's not going to crash. And I think that's what your brain does. So I think you've got to analyze these things logically. And actually, just remember that those thoughts aren't real. And how do you I suppose it all depends on the decision. But if you can take ownership of it, one, that's the first thing. So find a way for that decision to become your problem. But in my example, rather than just saying to the web company, you've made a mistake again, you need to fix it actually acknowledge that no, the mistakes mine, I can fix this. And I fix it by telling you lot to fuck off and finding someone better. So yeah, taking ownership of the problem, and then finding a way to deal with it. But if it's something that's bothering you, if it's on your mind, if you're waking up thinking about it, there's a decision that needs to be made, whether you know it or not. And you need to assign some time to that, because your mental capacity has been taken up by something. And you're creating all these scenarios in your head that probably aren't even true. As in, once you take that action, those outcomes probably aren't going to happen. But already, you'll be thinking of the worst case scenario constantly. And that's the stuff that's bothering you. It's just difficult, isn't it sometimes to make those decisions, and you have to make them better?

It is. I think, you know, kind of... Yeah, you're right. That kind of... Back in for me, it's, yeah, back in that clarity of what you really want to do. That kind of honesty, like you say, that if something is keeping you up at night, you've got to fix it. Because like I say, particularly in business ownership, you need more brain space, because you've got everything going on, everything from accounts to tax, to supply, to... And actually, you need more of that headspace. And you can't do it. And I think, again, I go back to kind of my old boss here. He... I don't know if he did, but I remember he was told, and he kind of passed it on to us, if he woke up in the night thinking about a staff member three times,

that was a death knelt, because there was a kind of concern there. And particularly on that sort of side of stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Probably, if you're thinking about it positively, it looked great. But if not, there. And I think he, or maybe it was a story he told, kind of, you know, he had the kind of the mantra of higher slowly, fire quickly. And I think you take that for kind of every aspect of your, every aspect of your business life, web, kind of web developers, spend some time doing the research, ask some questions, go and speak to other clients, go into things slowly. But when, when, and if it, and not everything turns bad, but a natural logical progression of life, there is always time where things come to an end, come out quickly, rip the plaster off quickly. And I think that higher slowly kind of fire quickly thing, I think is always a really good thing. And it's not just about kind of staff ownership. That's about everything from getting into contracts, all that, that. But I think probably the biggest thing that I can point to that has helped my business, it comes down to the people around it. And I've spent a lot of time both in and running mastermind groups, and actually sitting around the table in whatever format, talking business with other business owners is so powerful, it is so valuable, kind of five, six, seven, eight business owners. And you raise the question of kind of concerns over your web guy, two things, you know, one, someone will have had some experience of that. And two, they'll have an opinion on it. But if you find the right businesses to sit around that table with, it's just the most valuable thing. And it's not necessarily about learning new stuff or anything like that. It's that kind of that sharing of ideas, that sharing of experience. And also, I find interesting, the accountability, you know, because if I've been sat around that table, and I've raised a concern about my web guy, or whatever it is, and they've said, well, you need to get rid of it. If I come back next time, not having got rid of it, I get an earful. And right now, you've told me this thing's causing you pain, costing you money and slowing your business down. The only option now left to you is to make that change. We've put our time and energy into this, you've fucking done nothing. What's it? And I think having that ability, and again, this doesn't need to just be really clear, this doesn't need to be a paid for group. I mean, there's some very, very good ones, etc, etc. But actually, regular sit downs with other business owners, I think is one of the most powerful things you can do for moving your business forward, which is based on what we're talking about today, the decisions that you need to make.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, there's a huge power in just talking about those problems out loud, actually just saying, you know, what they are. I think it's underestimated, isn't it? Your problem shared, the problem halved is all and all that. But yeah, that's really good advice, Paul.

I think it's about experience, isn't it? And again, it's really easy to sit here and question some of the decisions we've made and all those kind of things. And I do believe you do the best that you can do with what you have at the time. But knowing that to be a fact, you need to adjust what you have at the time to help you make better decisions, you know, having the right people. And I think that's it. But I think it's interesting, man. I've been really interested in chatting, learning a bit more about those things today. And I think even as we say here, it makes me think about, well, what are the decisions that I've got on my desk today? What are the things that I do? Interestingly, which aren't on my desk? Why aren't they on my desk? And I think it's a useful thing to look at it. But I think, right, that's, yeah, that's, I think, a really interesting chat. Anything further to add, mate?

I think, yeah, just, I think just the final thing is something that we said earlier, is that no decision is final, right? As in, it probably feels like it's a really final thing at the time. You know, you with ending your business and me leaving that job, it's you naturally think, what if I leave this job and I don't get another one? Or all of those things that I was saying earlier will come into your head. I think if you almost look at it from a much more open perspective, I'll get another job. If I try this, it doesn't work, I'll get another job. I'll have this conversation. Either they'll, you know, they'll leave or they won't. It's like, it's the decisions generally aren't as big as what you're building up in your head. It's generally, there's no finality attached to a lot of these things. And whatever you do, you will just deal with it. Like trusting yourself to be able to deal with the future, I think is really important. There's a lot of stuff, like when I think back to when I, when I sort of went off in like my childhood and things, and when I tell those stories, maybe I'll share some of these podcasts, who knows? Like people like, my God, mate, like how, I can't believe that happened to you and things. And the kids are resilient. You don't think of it. It's just, that was just part of my life. I didn't make those decisions. They were made for me, but I just carried on and moved forward. And I think that's a lot of the time. That's the problem is that you have this decision. You think if I make it, it's going to change all this, but actually you have to trust in yourself and your ability to be able to just move forward. What really is the worst that can happen? Is that really going to happen? Is that plane going to crash? Just typically it's probably not. I'll be all right. And yeah, I hope that makes a little bit more sense. So I think sometimes we can doubt ourselves and really think the worst, especially with some of the big decisions, but whatever you do, you'll cope with it. You'll cope with it. You'll find a way. We have that built in. It's just part of your story.

You look to the history of this as well, don't you? And again, I look back to university in my final year and thinking, what if I don't get the grades? Well, I mean, but actually I forget what happened, but I remember going and looking back and I think pretty much every assignment I've ever written is between this range and this range. So it proves that pretty much everything I'll write is scientifically speaking. It's been between that. And it's the same thing that actually, look, everything I've done up to now, I've been all right. Well, okay. This decision therefore probably isn't the best. When I first left employment, my worst case scenario was I went and got another job and it could, and I knew it could have been anything from kind of bar work to whatever it was. But I knew you can always kind of start again with it. And I think actually having that knowledge or reminding ourselves, and again, this is back into that kind of higher, slowly, fire, quickly thing, having that time to think about it and think what's actually the worst case scenario. And again, I talk about this into people's marketing and say, look, the worst case scenario here is that someone that you're not working with continues to not work with you. So there's nothing to lose. Go out there, go and do it. And I think, you know, apply that to kind of everything really. And I think it, it helps because the decisions have to be made. You can't do this without it. And I think, you know, applying that kind of logic, I think, I think helps massively.

Fantastic. That's probably a good place to end today's podcast then, isn't it? Would you say?

Enjoy that as ever. Just, yeah, it's just interesting stuff. So yeah, I hope that has been useful to

everybody. Yes. And thank you very much for listening to the Throb podcast. We'll be back

next week with a new episode. More Throb next week. Thanks for listening.

We'll be back next week for another edition of the Throb podcast. If you want to find out more, you can find me at paulchapmanuk.com. And you can find me, Bertie, at bertiecord.co.uk.

Thanks again. See you next week.