Who to Listen to, who to ignore - and why

Welcome to Throb, The Reality of Business podcast. Real business chat from real people without the shiny veneer of gurus anywhere near it.

With your hosts Bertie Cordingly and Paul Chapman and maybe some guests along the route, we'll talk about our experiences of running a business, helping others run a business and sharing real stories based on real experience. Hello everyone. Anyway, good morning Paul. Hello mate, you alright?

I'm alright, how are you?

Very well indeed, thank you, yes.

So this is a very unusual podcast episode today because we've done something a little bit different, a little bit naughty. We have. Well it's not actually that naughty because it is in a work context but Paul, do you want to tell our audience what we're doing today that's different from our other podcasts?

I am in Bertie's bedroom.

You're not in my bedroom, you're in my office.

I'm as shocked as everyone. No, it's great. It's great to actually be in a work environment and just kind of see you and chat and you know.

Yeah, it's a novelty. We shook hands and everything which just felt weird. Yeah, it's exciting. It is weird, it's lovely.

I've missed it. I know it sounds weird. I do genuinely miss, I like meeting people. It's a big part of what I do. And I do genuinely miss the kind of whole handshake-y thing. Obviously then we fully sanitise and all the other sort of stuff before the sanitisation police come. Yes. Because they are out there.

They are, they are indeed. So yeah, so this is a podcast episode recorded live face to face. So then, what are we going to talk about today?

So, as you know mate, when you start a business, you're never going to be short of opinions. But as the wise man once said, opinions are a lot like arseholes. Everyone's got one and most of them stink. But, and it is, it's a sizable but this. The reality is, your business, it will move forward more quickly, you will make more money, you will make less mistakes, etc, etc, etc. If you learn from other people's experience. Which kind of puts us into that interesting position of, well look, who do you know, who should you listen to? Kind of who should you ignore? And kind of why? And that's really what I thought we could have for us today. And just kind of go through, let's have a chat about some of the people that you should listen to, that you perhaps shouldn't listen to. And kind of how to spot the difference. Give us someone that you really should listen to.

I was going to start with shouldn't.

Well okay, let's go shouldn't. Let's go shouldn't.

Well I think if you're starting a business, I think sometimes some of the worst people you can listen to, like especially if it's quite a unique idea that you've got, maybe something a little bit out there that you can see the vision. I think telling the idea to friends and family can sometimes be the wrong thing to do. I mean yes, of course, talk about the idea, right? But when you've got like friends and family, like you get opinions like, well if it's that good an idea, why isn't someone doing it already?

Yeah.

Or, you know, you'll have the opposite effect where people will talk and sort of say, oh yeah, that's amazing, that's amazing, you know, I would buy that from you. But actually they probably wouldn't.

Yeah.

So it's a, yeah, it's a very different narrative. I always use the X Factor example in this. Do we need to speak about that before?

I don't think so, no.

So like, you know, like when you watch X Factor and there's always these people that come on who are absolutely fucking dog shit, right? And you're just like, how on earth, how on earth did the people get there? And like, it's, they go on there on the stage and like the parents or the friends and family are in the back and then these people start singing. It's just like, you're awful. But someone has told you that you're really good to get there. And what I, and this is the bit that I never really fully understand. Do those people actually genuinely think they're good or are they just, they don't want to deliver the bad news? But either way, it's, I think the example sticks. It's like when you're just telling a small, you know, sort of segments of people and you're relying on that for your business advice, for people that have no business giving business advice, then it's a very sort of biased view.

Yeah, I think, you know, it's at some level, the last thing you need when you start a business is a supportive friend, which I know is a weird thing to say, because of course you do. But actually you want, you want that dose of realism. And that's, that's a really hard thing to kind of kind of lay on anyone because, oh, you know, you're so close to your business idea. You love it. You are convinced it's going to work to the point you're kind of happy to go to the ends of the earth for it. And then you're going to talk to your friends. And of course you are, but they can't really add anything. And I think that's, that's the thing. I think, you know, kind of my kind of overarching things is that advice is good, but you have to know that most people giving the advice haven't achieved or won't know anything about or won't have done what you want to do. And that's not a kind of a derogatory thing because, you know, we said before, business is about the most personal thing in the world. It's, you know, what is this thing that you want to do? How, when, for what end, et cetera, et cetera. So most of the people that are out there giving that advice can add very little value because they don't know anything about it. Now it's not to say you discount them all, but it's kind of back to where we kind of started. Like kind of who do you listen to? And I think it's, yeah, and I don't want to kind of, you know, wrap up the podcast quickly in kind of two minutes, but it is, it's that. I think there's, everyone's input is valid as long as you take it as just that, as just input. And I think, you know, kind of friends and family, like I say, they are, yeah, they are, they are tricky because, you know, it is, I think the X factor thing is a really kind of smart way of saying it. Because there's lots of people there that someone should have said, look, mate, no.

So, yeah, just exactly. And people don't like delivering that, you know, that bad news. I think that's what you get with friends and family. I think you get a very biased opinion, you know, either good or bad. You generally don't get the stuff in the middle. And, you know, this is from my own personal experience and it's, you know, it's nothing against like my own friends and family, but they just, you know, they don't understand. So you get that, yeah, it's a bias opinion. And I think as well, you know, sort of while we're on the subject of who not to listen to, and this is probably more down the line when you're maybe a little bit more established and say posting on social media and things like that. But if you have, you know, if you post something, it goes, you know, maybe you get 100 comments on there, like, you know, in a great thing. And you'll get 100 positive or so, you'll get 98 positive comments to negative.

Yeah.

Like you will instantly focus on those negative comments. And I have seen people do this, like, and it's so sad. I've literally seen people change their Instagram accounts, split their Instagram account and do really knee jerk, crazy shit because of this one person that's ranted. And then it's almost like then you've got to go back and fix that. And that's just really sad. So there is a big difference between feedback and criticism.

Yeah.

So if someone's been an absolute fucking knobhead and just, you know, trolling you stuff, like, do not listen. You would not take advice from that person if they were still in front of you. So don't take fucking feedback from them either. It's like their opinion does not matter. It's like, you know, either just go on there and give some witty comment back or, you know, whatever the, how your business is or just fucking block them. Like you don't need that. So, you know, there are people not to listen to. If someone is just being a complete neged, it's like, you know, that their opinion does not matter. It has, it does not serve you at all. If they're your customer, if they're buying from you, it's very different. But even then, you know, it's like a lot of that feedback that you get won't necessarily be, and I'm not saying cherry pick the good stuff, but you've really got to, you know, use quantitative methods to measure the feedback rather than just qualitative. Or is it the way around? I don't know. Yeah.

I mean, I think kind of for me, I would bundle, you know, social media into just don't listen to it. It isn't real. It's no longer real. There is no value to it really, you know, because, you know, if you get good feedback, well, that's not that useful because you think what you're doing is good anyway. So that doesn't necessarily help. Yes, I can understand, you know, the confirmation and that sort of stuff. If you get bad feedback, it's feedback from, you know, Maureen in Swindon who you've never met, never going to know anything about, and simply kind of couldn't give kind of two shits about. So I think, you know, that is, it's well worth kind of ignoring there. And I think, you know, but I think, you know, I think it's somewhat as a starting point as you get into business, you need to have an honest conversation with yourself about how you're going to feel about advice and feedback and that sort of thing. And either decide that you are strong enough to see it. You know, my dad used to say, look, you know, with this kind of stuff, hear it, you don't have to listen to it. And it's kind of two very different things. And I think you either need to be, you have to, you know, this is why we do this podcast, because, you know, the reality of business is that you're always going to get it. That is just how it is. You have to decide your personal reality. Am I, for the better phrase, strong enough to see it and bounce it back? You know, if I'm not, there is a question, is kind of business ownership. And, you know, it's certainly depending on what you do. Is that right for you? Because you are a bit more above the parapet. But the other part of that is that if, if not, if, you know, if you are, you know, you are someone that, that will affect you, go and find some trusted help. Go and buy the mentor. Go and, you know, whatever it takes, but have someone that you can, you know, run it back. You know, you know, you're kind of chatting earlier about kind of various situations. And you think, actually, just someone just needs to hear to go, no, that's not a thing. Move on. Yeah. Yeah. And someone that you really, really trust. And again, you know, and again, this is, this is difficult kind of trying to find that person. But, you know, I think that there needs to be an acceptance that doing what you do in business ownership, there's always going to be opinions on it. And, you know, it is good to, to seek out opinions, but, you know, that's it. You know, most people haven't done it. And I think, you know, this is, you know, on the other side, you know, so people, because I would say, look, you know, you should listen to other business owners. I think that's, that's a good thing. But again, they've got to be the right business owners. And interestingly, most of the time, the people giving opinions aren't the people to listen to. The people that aren't saying anything and getting on with it, they're the ones to listen to. And I think, you know, this is, this is all part of this challenge of thinking, well, who is it? But, you know, back into that, you know, back into all those kind of cliches of, I think we've probably talked before, you know, success leaves clues, go and find them. You know, who is, you know, who's been in business for a long time? You know, who's been in business, who's driving a big car? Who's got the big house? You know, again, these are small things, but they're measures. You think, actually, we can go and do that. Whereas kind of, you know, Norman that turns up at networking twice a week and is butted on Vox on over, his opinion might be useful, but it may not actually be real. Does that make any sense? Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, I think it's, it is a tricky one, isn't it? Because, and I suppose it all depends on where you are in your business and, you know, whether it's just the idea stage. And I suppose that's the context I was talking about earlier, right? But, yeah, equally, if you are further down the line, then I think that's when you start to get even more and more opinions coming out on how you should be running it or how you should be spending your money and what staff you should be hiring. And I think then it's, you've got to fully understand where you are with your business. Like I speak about, you know, like understanding what sort of parts of your funnel you need to work on, whether it's like acquisition of new customers or activating new customers or whether you need to focus more on retention or referral or revenue, which is generally a result of those things.

But, you know, if someone's like, you know, giving you advice and like, oh, I've looked at your website and it's a bit shit or this needs changing. And, you know, that may be so. But if you're actually focusing on actually acquiring new customers, it's like that's not the most relevant thing for you to be doing. So just because someone might be a website expert and that's, you know, we can change that in a couple of days. Great. I'm sure we can, but you've still got to be true. You've got to understand what stuff you need to be working on at the moment. And if you're like really going hell for leather on social media and outreach and cold calling or whatever it is to bring those customers in, then yes, your website is part of that. But that is like how to activate those customers. And if you still don't know how to bring those customers in in the first place, then that's the wrong stuff. So it's not necessarily bad advice, but you don't need to implement every single piece of advice at that time. So if I was saying to you, you know, chappers, you know, maybe you should be changing this bit on your website, but it's just, if it's not important at the time, you don't need to like drop everything because that then you become very reactive in business and you start moving away from your plan. Whereas you need to be, you know, much more proactive and understand the stuff that you need to be working on.

So that's really interesting. Actually, it's not something we've talked about before. We probably should. It's actually that the importance of having a proper step-by-step kind of crystal clear plan. This is what I'm trying to achieve. These are the things I'm going to be doing. And this is, you know, this is the plan to follow. And that, you know, that's once you've got that, and that's something that kind of makes sense to you, then you can actually kind of, I think it probably makes the seeking of advice and actually the reaction to it a lot easier. Because if I brilliant, that's really useful logistic stuff. I'm not there yet. And I'm comfortable that I'm not yet there yet. And I, you know, because I've got this plan. I've got this, this kind of, you know, support thing. But I think, you know, it is, I think about kind of my own experience in it. And just most of the people, I don't know, I mean, some of it, looking back, I almost, I probably listened to too many people. Because I was, like I say, it's a stage of business. When you're young and you're kind of hungry, you want to kind of, you know, kind of go look for this stuff. But it's just, maybe it comes back to kind of strength of mind. Maybe it starts with this, you know, this absolute clear, crystal clear clarity. But this strength of mind to kind of, to not listen sometimes. And I think you, because I think you can seek out too much advice.

Yeah, absolutely. And if you're, if you're trying to work on too many things at once, then yeah, you'll be taking advice from everywhere. And, and then it becomes difficult to, if you're, if you're going to implement something based on someone's advice, then, you know, I believe that everything should be a test and an experiment, right? So if you're saying to me, oh, you know, Bertie, you should try this idea. Great. I will, Paul. Fantastic. Fantastic idea. But I will do that at the time, which is right for my business. But if I am going to do that, I want to know whether it works or not. So actually I can come down to you back and say, do you know what, Paul? That idea you gave me, fucking amazing. Like absolutely nailed it. Or equally, I tried that. This is what I learned from it. It didn't work for me. Because there is, you know, there's, you can take something from one business and apply it to a different one. You know, like I remember doing like with fill my belly, mail shots were absolutely fantastic for us. We had like a 10% response for it on a mail shot, which was, you know, unheard of. Almost took that same mail shot, just swapped out a few words, tried it in a very similar business model, completely bombed, literally did nothing. So, you know, sometimes you can have something that works really, really well that, you know, I could have given that advice. Oh mate, try mail shots. In fact, here's the template. Take this template and use it in your business, confidently knowing that that would work, but it didn't. So, you've always got to test this stuff for yourself and test it at the, at the point that's right for you. And I think that's important as well. I think that adds a lot more context around the advice. Yeah, I think so.

And I think it's a really good point. You shouldn't discount ignorance. You know, people that don't know your business, they're not people necessarily to ignore because, you know, it is all the same. Business is all the same. And it always has been, you know, it's the same things, same order, different versions thereof. And I think, you know, all these, you know, you look at any, any like massively successful unit, they've looked at stuff. They've had, they've got outside eyes to come and look at this and ask some difficult questions. You know, I'm a massively keen cyclist. I'm, you know, sort of, you know, read a lot of books about it. And I, you know, look back to kind of the early days of Team Sky and they, you know, they were designing bikes and whatever. And they'd say, well, you know, the handlebars are 18 inches. Why? Well, because it always has been. And they think, well, fine, but why? And I think, you know, I think, yeah, that's the thing you want someone else. You want someone to be able to look at your business and ask why and show that what they're doing. And I think, you know, when I, I kind of spend a lot of time kind of look at this and like, kind of looking at marketing and general other geekery. And I think there's a real difference here that when you take this advice, it's not, or very, very rarely, it's a cut and paste job. It's, you look at the concept. Why has that worked? How does that work in my industry? So what is, you know, why did a, why did the mail shop work? And what's my version of that? And I think that's the kind of thing, because people see this a lot. They think, well, this person's done that. I'll do exactly the same thing. And there may be some validity in that. And I think, you know, the testing is crucial. I think you're dead right. People don't do this enough, but don't look at the thing, look at the concept behind it. And if you break down, okay, something that they weren't expecting, maybe has landed in their world. That's made them act. Okay. Well, what's my version of that? And it may well be that my version of that is a video, a personal video and email, like a bonjoro or whatever it is.

Exactly.

And it's the same with this advice stuff, is that it is good to listen. It is important to listen to folk, but you're looking for the concept behind it, rather than the ver, ver, ver, ver, ver, ver, ver, ver,

I'm leaving that in. That's dead.

Rather than the verbatim thing that they say. And I think that's, that is, and again, I get this because we've all been there. You sort of fucking, I mean, running a business is mad, isn't it? Do you remember those kind of those early days where you've got everything on, you're just, you're just trying to do it and you see something right and do it and you do, you, you, you're kind of absorbing it and you're trying to do it. But I guess it's only with that bit of experience to kind of step back and think, well, okay, why is it doing it? Why is that working? Should I do it? How do I do it? What is it? How does it work for me? And I think that's the key bit, I think with advice. Cause you think, and again, you know, while I'm on the rant here, you know, you look at, we are, we're kind of, we're beaten down by sheer volume of information now. And again, you know, you look at social media, for example, and of course, as a business owner, you're going to follow other business owners. You're going to see it, but it's really easy, even though we're all kind of smart, intelligent people, we, we don't realize, I don't know. I don't know. I think it is just because there's so much of it. There's so much bullshit. You start to believe it or not, even not kind of what I'm looking for kind of consciously, but you just see it. So there's such a way to be, well, I should be doing that and I should be doing that and I should be doing that. And I think that's always been a big thing for me that I see a load of business owners that are trying to live someone else's business dream, you know, and, and, you know, that kind of, I'm going to be a millionaire thing. And lots of people actually don't want to do, they like the money side, they don't want to do, aren't able to do, have no interest in doing the insane amount of work you have to do to become a millionaire. Whereas actually they'd be massively happy as a hundred air, a hundred grand, I don't know, I don't think that's the word. But, you know, and I think that's, that's the other thing is, is that, you know, is the person you're taking advice from actually doing what you want to do? And most of the time, no, it's not. And that's not the fault of the, the person given it. It's, it's the fact that they don't know what you really want to do. Yeah.

I think you've raised some really good points that, I mean, the, the social media thing, like it frustrates the hell out of me. I think, you know, there are, there are some great examples of people that, you know, use social media really well, but also, you know, there's a lot of like charlatans on there as well. Right. And it is, you know, it's like always some fucking 12 year old. Like, like, yeah, this is how, this is how to make a million quid using Amazon FBA. And it's, it's like, you've got to put your logical brain on, right? It's like, if this kid does know how to make a million quid using Amazon FBA, then that's what he's going to do. That's it. Like, you know, he doesn't want to shit. Like what other fucking, like you, you don't see Apple going out there and saying, right, everyone, you know, let's, I'm going to teach you all how to make phones. Yeah. It, it doesn't, it doesn't work like that. That's not how business works. Yeah. So, which is a shame. Yeah. That would be lovely, wouldn't it? But, you know, and even if it did, and it's like, you know, like somebody could literally go in like this, their business is selling that, that, that, that blueprint. And yeah, I, I don't buy into that at all because even with my own example, with the mail chat and stuff earlier, even something that could work in one business doesn't necessarily, you can't copy and paste it and translate it. And I see this when, you know, people want to like replicate people's sales funnels or email copy and stuff like that. And to a degree it can work, but the amount that you would pay from that and the amount that you're going to have to then customize it and change it and actually tailor it to your business, you might as well just start and do your own testing and learning because you are going to have to test and learn. With anything that you do, there's, there's no silver bullet. There's no copy and paste solution to all of this stuff. So, but with social, the, you are always comparing like what you're feeling on the inside and all of the inner workings of your business that's going on to what someone is projecting on the outside. So, you know, like you see, you see like dickheads and they're in front of a private jet. And, you know, it's like there's, there was people have been climbing over fences, haven't they? At airports to get selfies in front of private jets, you know, and that's, and that's it. And then, you know, you see that on Instagram, you're like, wow, this guy's on a private jet and like, you know, like throwing fucking money in the air. It's just vulgar, but you naturally, like we, we are trusting it, I think as a species, like, why wouldn't you believe that? It's like, yeah, you know, look at this guy. They rent apartments and do all of these other tricks just to make out that.

And I think this is a volume again, sorry to interrupt you, but yeah, I think that's it. I think if you just saw it once, you think, yeah, all right, sunshine, but it's again and again and again. And what I've really noticed is that it's, it's coming down the ladder. If that makes sense. You know, there is a, you know, that kind of top influences, which is, again, we should do, we should do a podcast about things that make me cross. It would just be like, it'd be like weeks worth, but you know, it's there,

people who, you know, they're doing the same thing too. And I think people are starting to believe them and these kind of, these kind of wannabe influences. And I don't, I don't get it. I, you know, but I, I think it is, it's, it's, if it was just the, I don't know, Kardashians of this world, then you get to discount it. But because more and more people are trying to emulate that without having anything kind of behind it, I think that is, that's almost affecting the, I don't know, the right thinking folk into that. Well, maybe it is a bit real. Maybe they are doing this. Maybe, you know, and it, yeah, I think, I think it, it is that, it's that weight, that weight of content that you almost, even though you're, you're conscious about it, you can't, you know, you stop discounting it. Yeah. You,

you start to believe it because it's just, these are people's business models,

right?

That is their business model to sell that information or, or misinformation. People have sort of said, oh, I've bought this person's program, whatever, you know, and it could be anything from like 80 quid to like eight grand or right, whatever. But like, I've seen people pay like 80 quid for like, and they get like a two page PDF on how to create an Instagram reel or something. It's believable. And why wouldn't it believable? I mean, yeah, I remember like a few years ago, saw that like, I love Star Wars and toys and things like that. You know, you're just looking around here, there's bits and pieces about, right? But it was the most amazing fucking lightsaber that you could ever see. Right. And it was, it's, and I knew, I knew that it couldn't be real. I knew that it couldn't be real. And it was 40 quid. And it's like this,

it came apart and it lit.

I'll find you the video, Paul, like, we'll see if we can link it. And it was just the most amazing thing. And it was PayPal. And I thought, okay, right. I know this is a con, but I'm going to take the chance because if it all goes tits up, I'll just, I'll just full PayPal. And I'd forgotten about this lightsaber. Like I wasn't like, and then like, I got a parcel to the door months later. I might even be able to find it. I got a parcel to the door months later. Obviously this isn't going to translate.

This is perfect for audio.

This isn't going to translate. Well,

no, I haven't got it. Anyway. So about two months later, this, this parcel came through. I don't even know why they bothered. And literally I opened this thing. It was, oh, it's my lightsaber. It's a little bit light. It was just a jiffy bag. And what I opened, what I can only describe as a hook a duck prize.

It was, it was, it was just ridiculous. I will find, I'll find this, I'll post a picture of it. So I got this, this like plastic. And I'm like, I don't even know why they even bothered sending it. Cause it was not even, it was just ridiculous. Like not even comparable to the video. Anyway, PayPal did refund it. But yeah, it's very, like everybody gets sucked in. And a lot of the time, I think it's, it's, if you're needing something at that point, it's even more believable. So PayPal scams, for example, like my sister has been caught out by them three times, but always, it's always when she's bought something on eBay and then happens to get the thing. Like, you know, your PayPal account has been compromised. Then you log in. It's like, Oh fucking hell, I've done it again. It's, it's, it's always so that. So if you're feeling desperate and if you're feeling like shit, my business is failing, I need to, you know, I need more money. And then you see this thing, you're vulnerable and you are going to, you know, buy into that. So it's, it's, if it's too good to be true, it always is. I don't know a single business owner, like not what, and we know a lot of people and we challenge me if I'm wrong. Like, you know, I know people like, yeah, invested, built businesses, like across all walks. I don't know a single person that has ever made it. It's like, Oh, what did you do? Well, I bought this course on, I bought this course on Instagram. It cost me four grand. And yeah, you know, now I'm doing like whatever. It's like, it doesn't happen. It doesn't mean that it can't happen, but it doesn't. It's not, you know, it's not going to work.

And I think there's two bits on that, but I think this is a good time to kind of go back to something we've told us about before, that this is the importance of having a unit around you. Groups of people, you know, we've talked about mastermind stuff before, and you know, that is so important. You know, have four or five people that you know and trust, and you'll build those relationships, go and look through, build those relationships, and take this stuff, run it by them, kind of have that kind of part of it. And I think that, that is a hugely important, you know, the best people you can probably listen to are people that you really trust and have known over time. And that kind of comes, and you'll know, and you know, people listening to this, you will have met other business owners that you just got on with, you like, there was respect, there's a kind of a credibility and reality. You be the person, you be the conduit. But you go and say to them, and say, look, Bertie, come on, let's go and, you know, why not? We once a month, go and grab a beer, and we'll put it in the diary, and because that stops you making mistakes. It's not really, it's not really about learning new stuff, but it's actually about kind of, kind of shortcutting the process. And I think, you know, that's, that's an important part of it. But I think, kind of to dive into the stuff that we're saying, look, you know, you really shouldn't listen to, to be entirely kind of controversial on that, which is not, at some level, yes, you should, because they are making money. Look at what they're doing. You know, what is your, you know, the whole private jet thing and a load of money. Sorry, the whole private jet thing and a load of money. That is, all it is, is a way to capture attention. You know, you look at, you know, let's just kind of take up marketing here. In the old days, it was much more smash and grab. You know, when we, when we wrote the book, back in, I don't know, 2017, bestseller. I don't know if I've mentioned that. We should mention that. Available at literally no good books. Yeah, I've got thousands of copies. You need, you need anything kind of absorbing, if you spill any milk or anything, let me know. But yeah, so when we, I can't remember, what was the point I was making?

You were saying about these people with the private jet, you should still, and I think what you were going to say is, don't necessarily listen to them. Yes, I remember. But, observe them. Oh yeah, when the, when we kind of,

we did the book, it was a great kind of smash and grab thing. You know, and marketing was a lot more smash and grab then. You know, literally we'd put it on, you could download a free copy. We'd spend 50 quid on Facebook ads. I don't know, 200 downloads, 10 people go and spend 100 quid. Lovely. God, gold dust. It's not a thing. That world isn't there now. You have to earn people's attention. You've got to get people's attention. You can't get them to engage. Don't do that. You've got to get attention. So this means something has to happen in their world that stops them in their tracks long enough to get the attention and you earn the right to then follow up with them and send them more. And that's all they do. Somebody in exactly, it's getting the right person at the right time. You know, so you are, you know, that person that's, you know, I made my money super quick and here's my jet kind of thing. That will stop a certain sort of person in their tracks. The same way that if you're saying that your printers cut print costs by 65% and that's, you know, directed at a facilities manager who's got a big print bill, it's perfect. So, you know, you look at these things and it's out. Get their attention, whatever it takes. And this is why direct mail is so good. This is why video is so good. This is why personalization is so good. Something gets their attention and from there, you've then got that little chink to go back to them and go back to them and go back to them. And that's all they're doing. You know, maybe a bit like the Nigerian priest that needs to, Prince needs to get his money out. Maybe this guy actually is a really good guy and he is going to help you make money. But the reality is you mustn't believe what you see on social media but you don't discount it either. You ask yourself, look, why are they doing it? It's the same with, you look at, you know, Amazon. Amazon is, it is a complete genius. They think about every element of it. They are really good people to take advice from. And, you know, I did an article ages ago and we were talking about kind of the one-click upsell stuff. And, you know, we talk about how important, and that, you know, that is a good thing to take advice off. And I got, I got one of those best emails, you know, those Friday afternoon emails where kind of people kind of question your parentage, question your girth, et cetera, et cetera. You know, kind of, you know, just wanker, I'm not a big business like this, I haven't got loads of money, anything. You're getting this wrong. All you need to do is look at the concept of what they're doing. And unless you sell nothing, which isn't a business, then you can do that. Because all they're doing is saying, hey, you know this pen you bought, do you want some paper with it? You know, and this is where all the profit is. This is the thing that every single business can offer a one-click upsell in whatever format. So, you know, last time I bought some shoes, there happened to be some socks on offer. You buy a drill, well, there's 25% off screws. Well,

this is the McDonald's deal prize with that, isn't it? You know, that is your typical.

And this is the advice that you should look for. And I think, you know, too many people discount looking at big business. They're doing the hard work for us. They are spending thousands and thousands and thousands and millions on testing and trialing things that works. If you're seeing it for a period of time, it works. So you look at that and think, okay, Amazon, you know, they are making millions after this one-click upsell. How do I do that? And that, just because, I mean, I perhaps need to stop calling it a one-click upsell. It can be in any format. You know, if you run a shop, it is as simple as asking, do you want fries with that? And whatever it is, and this is the stuff that you need to look for. This is the useful, this is the kind of, this is the reality of it. But again, you know, if you are, as that guy that, you know, kind of called me a dickhead and, you know, why wouldn't he? If you're looking at that thinking, it's a copy and paste job, you're wrong on this. It has to be. What's the concept? Why are they trying to do that? How do I do it? Absolutely. And that's,

I think that is the difference, isn't it, with, yeah, like, even though that I, I probably get presented those ads with 12 year olds in front of the private jet because actually, I do watch them because there are learnings there. Yeah. I'm not going to go and buy their shit, but actually, as you say, it's like, okay, so this is working. It's got lots of like, what is it about it? Well, it's attention grabbing. Yes. The copy is good, et cetera. But I know that I'm not going to get that product essentially as is described. I'm not going to be flying, flying, but I'm not going to be flying anything. I'm not going to be riding that private jet.

Do you ride private jets? I don't know. I'm not going to, you're bored it. What do you do? I don't know. Yeah. Sit in it? Yeah.

By buying his program anyway. Yeah. I know, I know that that is, is definitely not going to happen, but potentially he could be from selling his program, but not because he's, not because of the stuff that he's actually selling, if that makes sense. As in. Yeah. Yeah. So he's giving you the blueprint to, I don't know, it could be anything to go and launch that business. And do you know what? Probably one in a thousand people possibly will be able to execute on that blueprint to, you know, chance or the unfair advantage or whatever. But again, that is the, that is the anomaly. And unfortunately, the way that our brain works, we do focus on the anomaly. Take the lottery, for instance, right? You know, like the chances that, well, before they changed the number thing, I remember the chances of winning were like one in 14.7 million. Now, it's even higher than that, like ridiculously high. But if you say you'll never win the lottery, you'll automatically think of a lottery winner. You know, you remember that. What was he called? Michael Carroll? That, the guy that won. And then like, it was just like the chav guy who was always on the front page of the papers, right? It just spunked it all away, didn't it? Exactly. You know, so you think instantly, you say, oh, well, actually that's not true because I do know someone that won the lottery. Michael Carroll, he won it. And you know, there's a lottery win every week, but the chances of it actually happening are really low. There was a really good, I don't know if you've ever seen this, Derren Brown, you've seen like his, yeah. So did you ever see the gambling one? No, no. So basically what he did, he, he can, like, he gave somebody six bets and said, I'm going to teach you, I'm going to show you how to win on the horses. So over a period of six weeks, six bets, they all won. Amazing. Like, how do you do that? Right? This already. Yeah. So, and that was it. So, but then he actually showed you how we did it. So this is how we did it. First off, sent out a, put an ad in the paper, I'm going to give you a bet. So then like hundreds, thousands of people responded to this. Then if they won, did the same thing. So they'd already had three bets already through the thing in the paper. Yeah. And then basically, so whittled that down to, you know, however many, like 200 races or it was, but each person was given a different bet. So by the end, every single possibility of that bet was covered. Nice. Yeah. Filmed the last three. So of course, then there's one winner, but what the, you see that winner, but actually they were, I don't know the numbers, 3000 losers. Yeah. And that's the difference. And he also did the thing with flipping a coin. So showed him flipping heads, um, 10 times in a row. And like, here we go. One, two, three, whatever, just to prove that it can be done. But then he showed you that he was doing that consecutively for nine hours. And like, okay, here we go. Nine. Fuck.

And had to do the whole thing again. But like, but each time, because of the way he was like filming it, it was done in a way that it was like, you know, he had to not shown that he'd been doing it for nine hours. It's like, yeah, I'm just like record. So here we toss this 10 times. One, two, three, four, five, six, not showing the excitement as you're like, and there we go. Done it that easy. But you don't see the stuff that's behind. And it's the same in business. A lot of the time, you only see what you want to see. And you do go onto that anomaly. And, and it's a, it's a dangerous place. I think you've got to accept that. And it's not about being, you know, like when you challenge these people that like sell these courses, like, oh yeah, you know, you're a skeptic, whatever. Don't listen to them. That's not skepticism. That's just being realistic. It's, it's just realistic. Yeah. And that's interesting,

but that all plays in because for their target market, they're the ones that have never been believed. They're the ones that are told they're wrong. They're the ones that know of skeptics. So, you know, then you kind of kind of say, look, you know, let's hear some content. This will make you millions in six minutes. Look, there'll be loads of people that, you know, you know, kind of a skeptical and tell it's bullshit. look fine. You know, if that's you, fine, jog on, but for those right people. And again, the learning of that, you just, you get your message kind of closer and closer and closer and closer. So you've got this, I think it's a Seth Godin thing, kind of that minimum viable audience kind of thing. Yeah. And it's about them. And it is, it's, yeah, yeah. It's both kind of scary, but kind of quite clever. But this is the stuff that, you know, this is kind of what you look at. So, so look, I suppose with that in mind, then we can't really talk about advice without talking about the gurus. Mm hmm. Uh,

where we haven't even covered who we should be listening to, but yeah. So that, yeah. So the gurus.

Talk to me about the gurus. The gurus. I think,

I think there are some, again, it's contextual. So, you know, like I really rate, for example, Gary Vee. I like Gary Vee. You're pulling a face to say maybe you don't.

I haven't thought, so I'm keen to hear. What, what, what,

what I like about Gary Vee is that he doesn't directly sell anything. As in, so that if I'm consuming Gary, so this is Gary Vaynerchuk, if you're listening, most people have heard of him, who's probably listened to this, you know, this podcast, but you know, he's, you know, he's built different businesses, and now he has his own media empire. But the thing I really like about Gary Vee is all of his content is, you know, and whether you like that content or not, it's, it is literally put out there to try and help people. It seems to have come from a genuine place. There is never a sell at the end of it. So there's never a call to action. Yeah. And you wouldn't go and work with him directly, but you go and work from his companies, or you might go and buy his wine, or you might go and buy his shoes. And that's what I like about Gary Vee. I went to one of these entrepreneur fucking conferences a couple of years ago, and it was just like, I felt dirty after sitting there, you know, watching all these people like Taylor Lopez, Wanker, Grant Cardone, absolute shitbag. And it's just like, because I paid for this conference for one, and I didn't like, people were saying, why are you going to that for? I didn't realize this is what it was like. I'm like, it's a conference. Like, I'm going to learn loads of stuff. No, it wasn't. They literally pitched me for 40 minutes. And the first one, writing all this stuff, I thought, oh, this sounds amazing. I might do a bit of Forex trading. Right. So how do I do it? You buy my course for four grand. It's like, you absolute fucking tosser. I've literally listened to that. The next person came on, the same, the next person, the same, the next person, the same, all dickheads. Gary V came on at the end. He was like, look guys, I don't know why you are here listening to all of this stuff. You know, like, I'm not going to tell you anything different that's on my social media. Like, and I'm not selling you anything. And it was refreshing. The other person that was on there was Russell Brand. Same thing. So he absolutely nailed it. He was funny. Like, just, it was just like taking the piss out of everyone else that had been on. And again, not selling anything. It's like, you know, I'm not, but I've got a book, you know, have a look at it. If you're into, you know, if you, I think it was his addiction book at the time. So that's why I like Gary V. I don't agree with all the things that he say specifically, but I don't think there's any harm in watching it and listen to it because there's no, there's no, there's no close at the end of it. Like, you know, you'll either like the content or you don't, but he's not trying to sell you anything. Yeah. That's why I rate it. Yeah. I mean,

I kind of don't really have an opinion either way. You know, I like his, just get on with it. Just do some stuff. Yeah. If you need some more money, find some stuff, sell it on eBay, buy some more. Yeah. I like kind of the simplicity of it. You know, I don't know enough about him really. I think, I believe he kind of came from really kind of wealthy stock, which is neither good nor bad. But I, I think that, and it's, this is not his fault. I think there are a lot of people that don't know that or don't see it. Or again, it may not be true. And I always, I always think it's, you know, it's a bit like Donald Trump, you know, I mean, I kind of colossal asshole he is, but you know, and it's really easy if, if your dad gives you 10 million quid to start with, to be quite positive about it. And I think there's, there's a bit of a disconnect sometimes with the people that are following and hearing this stuff. But I do, I mean, I kind of think about it. He is, I would have, you know, I kind of, we know some folk that have met him and he would appear to be a really decent guy. And I think the thing I suppose I do like about him, he's not really pretending to be anything. Like he doesn't hide his background. He doesn't, he's just, he's just like, well, this is it. This is what you go and do. And I think, you know, I mean, again,

I spend a lot of time kind of, you know, in America, kind of at these conferences and just kind of a story that I, it was just brilliant. It was a Dan Kennedy, which I liked. Cause he's got brilliant mustache, great copywriter. But we went to this event in Cleveland, possibly Seattle. I don't remember. And it was kind of when iPads were first kind of coming out and you walk in the first and there is this massive, massive cage full of iPads, like full thousands of iPads. And no one said a thing about it. It's just a security guy standing there. And he was stood there for four days until the last day, the last kind of event on the last day, which is great. Really smart there because everyone wanted to stay. Cause they knew there'd be a, you know, so he kept all the crowd in and they just did this, this sell at the end that all the notes and everything that were going to be on these iPads preloaded. You could get it. And you just saw people getting up and walking to go and buy this stuff. And there's just this line and I was like 10,000 pounds for the course. I don't, I just think, and again, you know, it's, I don't like the pitch fest. I really don't. But, you know, I think there's,

there's so much to learn. There is so much to learn from it. And it is. Yeah. But, but yeah, I mean, I'm kind of on the guru side of thing, you know, Gary Vee. Yes. You know, I think, I think it's interesting thing. I think they, they have their place. You know, I was very, very lucky to kind of meet Richard Branson a while ago at an event. And that was kind of real kind of seminal moment really. He was just so cool and calm. Like it was an absolute clusterfuck around him. The organization was horrendous, but he was brilliant. And kind of, you know, the three minutes I got to chat to him while the photographer kind of changed his, his card was just, just really kind of interesting. But I think, you know, there is also a problem with this is that their world is so far removed from most people's world. Not just that they've got loads of money, but you know, it's dead easy to run a new marketing campaign if you've got a marketing team. You know, and, and you know, but I think it is, it's, you know, it's like everything I said about Amazon. You look at these people, what are they doing? Kind of, how did they do it? Why do we think that is? And what's our version of it? And I think all these people have a, have a part to play right up until the point that you, that you start to kind of believe it almost. And it's like, have you ever watched, have you ever watched Dogma?

It's a really interesting film, kind of Ben Affleck, Matt Damon, I think. Yeah. I won't kind of ruin it. Yeah.

I can't, yeah, tell me the rings of them.

Like kind of Loki and someone else, kind of the fallen angels, there's a, there's a loophole somewhere in a church somewhere. They get to go.

It's Alanis Morissette. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

They get to go back to heaven and it's just, I mean, I've not watched A.J. but it's kind of, yeah, really interesting film for lots of reasons. But there's a, there's a point that I think it's an angel or Chris Rock, is it? I don't know. Anyway, he's talking about, you know, the kind of problems with kind of religions and that sort of thing. He kind of, you know, if you've, if you've got, you know, don't have beliefs, beliefs are too difficult to change. Yeah. Have ideas. And I think that that's one kind of, this is that, you know, with all of these people, there is real value in it. There's real value. Listen to some gurus. There's real that, but it's again, it's like the socialists. As soon as you start to take it as kind of gospel as it were, that's when you start to be a bit lost because you can't then, you can't hear anything else. You can't know if someone else kind of says the other side of it, you can't kind of hear it. So I think, you know, it's, it's good. It's important to listen to the gurus, but it's, it's on a, you know, they need to be a real guru. They need to be, you know, kind of actually someone that is, you know, been there, done it, doing it, you know, which is why kind of, you know, looking at people like Branson and that sort of thing is really, it is really useful, but it is, it's tempered by that. How do I translate that into my world? Yeah. Yeah. And I think kind of with that as well, I would urge people to go and listen to, look at any really successful person, whether that is, you know, rower, whether that is, there's a book, Ben Hunt Davis, this will make the boat go faster. Yeah. Half of which I think is very good. I think it's kind of Ben Hunt Davis. I need to know the story of rowing. And, you know, you really think anybody that has achieved kind of anything at a really high level, there's loads to learn from them about business.

We should talk about that in another podcast because I use that analogy a lot. And that has literally like formed the basis of like, you know, some, some group work as in just all about goal setting and things like that. But everyone, but it's extremely interesting. And I, I heard him speak, I talk and it really like resonated. It's just super simple. Yeah. It's just, just, yeah. Okay. Who, let's,

who should we listen to? How do we, how do we help the, help, help the listeners out here kind of go and think, well, okay, I feel a bit lost or I think I could look, you know, no more. Who do we direct them to?

So this is, I'm not going to direct someone to a, to a specific person. I think in this, maybe you've got a different answer, but I'm, I'm thinking that if you are paying for advice, for example, or if you are going to actually take the time to seek somebody out, then listen to them and at least try and action that stuff. Like I think you've got to trust the process a lot of the time. So let's just say if you're working with someone who, you know, is going to help you with your social media specifically or help you with your website or whatever, it's very easy to, when someone starts talking to think, oh yeah, I know all this already. It's like, okay, you know it, but you're not fucking doing it, are you? So a lot of the time when you pay for things, if you pay for courses, it's, it's almost that, I mean, we've all done it. It's like get excited. Yeah. It's that you get excited about buying something and then it just sits in the box. And I think this is a lot of the case with advice or, you know, it could be therapy or anything. Like if you're that actual hour, that you're spending with that person is literally just the tip of it. You've still got to go and fucking do the work afterwards. So I think if you're going to, if you're going to spend the time, like if I was going to spend the time with you, you know, and pay for your time, then we sit for an hour. You'd give me some marketing advice. That means fuck all. Unless I actually go and do something and do it. But if I'm coming away from that and thinking, oh yeah, that's all really good. I'll do it next time. And you know, I just take that hour next month and sit with you and take that marketing advice again, just because you're a nice guy and I like check, like you've got to then go and implement it.

Yeah.

It's you listen to the people that you're actually taking the time to go and seek out, which sounds obvious, but it's not done. You know, I've had it with clients in the past. It's like, you'll, you'll give advice or you'll speak. It's yeah, I'm going to go and do that. And then next month, have you done it? Oh no, you know, I've been busy. It's like, you're literally wasting your money. I'll tell you a really good example of this. And you see it in PTs, like back in the time when I physically used to go to the gym, like I would see the same people with the same PTs, you know, like years, like this is going on. No difference. Yeah. Like no difference. And if I was a PT, there would be a point. It's like, you know, like you're either going to do this, like you're not doing this stuff. Yeah. Like it's, it's not just this hour that you're spending with me once a month or once a week. You're clearly not eating right or whatever. And that's fine, but I can't work with you anymore because it's not, it's, you're not doing like, that's my reputation on the line. So if someone's seeing you walk around the gym, you're not making any progress. And it's the same with business, right? If you're going to pay for that advice and put the time aside, then do it. You've actually got to go and then execute that stuff. So I think that's where I'm coming from on that. I think so. Again,

I don't think I'd kind of, kind of push you into people, you know, specifically. I think, you know, my old boss, I'm a very astute guy. You know, he would kind of with staff, he would hire slowly, fire quickly kind of thing. And I think that's very much the same with advice is that, you know, don't rush into it. Listen to loads, run everything by your own kind of bullshit filter, but, you know, look very slowly for people. And then when you find them, if you find people, you know, kind of grab them and hold them close. And again, I'm going to do it again. I'm going to go back to kind of mastermind groups, but only because a group of people, particularly if they, you know, if then you're not paying for it. These are group of people that aren't sort of paying each other. They are there all to support each other. And actually, as you gain it, you know, where I've done these before, you know, the punches get lower and lower and lower because if you, you know, if, because people really give to these kinds of things and actually you get some advice, if you don't do it next week, they're like, well, what the fuck? Why are we sat here? And, you know, and kind of, you kind of need that sort of kick up the backside. But I think, you know, I would, I would spend a bit of time looking, look for people that really have done it. And, you know, this doesn't need, they don't need to be millionaires. They don't need to be bought and sold that do that people that have done it are doing it. Often it's people that aren't shouting, but you know, make sure they've got the experience. You know, again, it's really difficult because I, I'm always concerned about business owners seeking advice or taking advice from people that have never run a business. Now it doesn't, it's not only what we've said before, running a business is no more noble than, you know, kind of being in a job. It just isn't, but it is different. The stresses are different. The day to day is different. The, all that kind of stuff. It is very, very different. And I think, you know, I can think of a notable example, actually, you know, you know, sort of, you know, to employ people, you know, well, I will do this. And I, well, but that's not our world. And I think that's, that's the key thing is that look for someone that has done, or indeed is doing something like you're doing. It doesn't need to be the same industry, probably better than it's not the same industry. You know, that ignorance goes a long way, but I think, you know, it's, there is loads of good advice out there. Your world will be immeasurably better with other people's advice in it, but it is, it has to be someone that's been there, done it, doing it, you know, someone that wants the same sort of thing, you know, because there's no, there's actually very little value from, you know, you, if you want a little hobby business, and I don't know if that sounds horrible, you want a little hobby business that's going to run, kind of 10 grand a year, there's not a huge amount of value in you, kind of, you're kind of sitting with a multimillionaire who's built, you know, bazillion businesses. Yeah. Again, as ever, there is stuff to learn, but it is, I think it is, it's, it's not necessarily that valuable. Yeah, it's, it's, yeah,

it's finding those relevant people, isn't it, to listen to. And, yeah, I think that, and, yeah, and I know you weren't, like, I suppose, you know, whether it's a 10 grand business, or a 100 grand business, or a million pound business, like, it's, it's, it's all personal to you, right? It's like, whatever you want to do, like, if that makes you happy, that's fine. Like, I'm in a very different, you know, mindset to what I was like, when was for my belly, 2005? As in, you know, wanted to build a business, employ people, all that sort of stuff now. Now I don't. Yeah. Like, it's, and it's, you know, it's, it's not that I want to run it as a, a hobby as such, but it's, yeah, my goals are very different now. And it's like, I, you know, if I get to the point where I need to start hiring people, then, you know, and I'm not talking about, you know, having systems and outsourcing all that other stuff, but, you know, having a huge team takes away from what I want to do now. So it's, I think the point about that is, is you've got to be really fucking clear on what you want as a business.

Yeah.

Because I could talk to someone now and they're like, Oh,

what you do is really good. You know,

you can be doing workshops every day. You could be doing this, you know, let's, let's make your time so efficient. You can have this team around you that does all of your sales calls and stuff like that.

Yes.

I know that that's perfectly feasible way of one way of growing a business. That isn't what I want. Yeah. It isn't what I want. I actually enjoy doing my discovery calls and actually like, even if people don't work with me, actually like I've genuinely helped. Yeah. Yeah. I enjoy putting content out there that actually, when people message and I do these daily emails, as you know, there's never a day that goes by where I don't get at least a response from somebody that's like, that really hit home today. As in, I needed this right now. And of course, you know, you can't be communicating out to people all the time and getting that sort of response from everyone consistently. You know, there's going to be times I think like, what's this fucking dickhead talking about today? Whereas, you know, but other times it's like, actually like I needed that. That's exactly what I needed to hear at that moment. If I grow my business in a way that, you know, like, I don't know, like a coaching franchise would be, I think I would lose that. Yeah. And that, you know, that's the stuff that gets me out of bed in the morning now. So I think look for people that are, yeah, as you were quite rightly saying earlier, doing something similar and equally understand what your vision and goal is. Like if you're working with a coach mentor, if they're not asking you, what are your goals? Yeah. Where do you want to be? Fine. And let's define those first.

Yeah.

Then already you're working to somebody else's plan. And that generally always ends up in misery because it's, it's somebody else's goals, plans, ideas, not yours. Yeah. If you want to earn 10 grand a year,

go for it. Yeah. If you want a hundred grand, fine. You want six grand. It doesn't matter. Exactly. Whatever it is you want. And I think, you know, this is, you know, kind of a finishing shot for this means that the question you want to hear from anyone you're asking advice from is why, you know, whatever, whether this is, you know, if I'm like, I mean, it never happens, but if I'm going to go to a social media agency and say, I want to do some Facebook, Facebook ads, I want that person to ask me why they never will. But these are the things that you want are people around you. You want people that will kind of question this kind of thing. And I think, you know, you know, for me, what I think where we've got to it is that the reality is all advice can be useful, even if that is, you know, it is advice that shows you that it's bullshit. So yeah, yeah, you should, advice is useful. That means that you discount. That's brilliantly useful. And I think, you know, all advice is useful. Big things to think about is it, it's never a copy and paste. Most of the people that will give advice haven't got any experience to give it. And I think, you know, the big one for me is that if you start to believe any of it, as opposed to kind of having ideas, as we said about it, that's the point where I think it becomes too dangerous because you end up in a bit of a rabbit hole and, you know, you end up following one thing rather than kind of hearing everything. Yeah. That's it. It's good. Well, I enjoyed that, mate. Yeah. That's it. So that's a wrap. That is indeed a wrap. That's a wrap. Well,

thank you very much, Paul, for, for popping over and visiting me today. Delighted.

I can probably take the duvet off now, mate.

I'm quite warm.

Podcast from bed. Perfect. We haven't even filmed it. So actually people will start to believe you. Yeah. We'll look like Bert and Ernie.

Good. Magic. thank you for listening, everybody.

All the normal stuff, like, subscribe. Yeah. Do all of that. Put up a billboard for us.

And yes, and we will see you for another, no, see you, you'll hear us. You know what I'm talking about for another podcast. Very soon. Bye, Paul. Bye, Bertie.

We'll be back next week for another edition of the Throb podcast.

If you want to find out more, you can find me at paulchatmanuk.com.

And you can find me, Bertie, at bertiecord.co.uk. Thanks again. See you next week.