What Makes a Great Leader?

Welcome to Throb, The Reality of Business podcast. Real business chat from real people

without the shiny veneer of gurus anywhere near it. With your host Bertie Cordingly and Paul Chapman and maybe some guests along the route, we'll talk about our experiences of running business, helping others run a business and sharing real stories based on real experience.

Thanks. Good morning, Paul Chapman. How are you? Bertie Cordingly as I live and breathe.

That's me. What the devil are you doing here?

I'm very well. It's my house, Paul, because that's where we are today.

It is. More excitement, more face to face. This is excellent.

Exactly. After the success of our last meeting, we've done it again. Well, that's true. Yeah. So what are we going to talk about today?

Who knows? I think we should talk leadership. Leadership. Leadership. I think this is a thing that you and I have batted around a bit over the last. And it's an interesting thing. Again, I don't think it gets talked about in business. And I think almost by definition, there is an element of leadership in business. I think more often than not, people think that this is a down the line thing. They equate it to when you've got staff. And look, that's definitely a part of it. And I guess for most people, they are building a business that they will intend to have some people in. But actually, I think pretty much from day one, the things that you need to do to move that business forward are kind of linked into leadership. You know, whether that is you trying to convince funders that you're the person for this, whether that is you trying to get your concept and kind of get other people to know it. You've got to bring them along for the ride. And I think all of those kind of things are kind of intrinsically linked with leadership. And I think it is a big part of business that doesn't get talked about.

It doesn't. Or possibly maybe it does. But thank you very much for that intro that I thought I was doing. But anyway, that's all right because you've done it now. And I love how we pretend that we don't know what we're talking about when we're sat here looking at an A4 piece of paper with all our little prompts on. But anyway, there's some behind the scenes info.

It is actually planned.

It is. It is planned. Yeah, we do actually put effort into this podcast, despite what one may think.

Despite the results.

But anyway, going back to and this is what being a leader means. Yeah, I think I love the subject of leadership because I think it conjures up so many thoughts. And, you know, you can instantly think of maybe people you've worked for or maybe the sort of leader that you are as a person.

Yeah.

But I think generally we think of like when someone says leadership to me, my mind instantly goes to sort of like big inspirational leaders like, I don't know, Steve Jobs or maybe even Bill Gates or Barack Obama. Right. You know, like Elon Musk. Just sort of big inspirational figures, which I think is what you think of with the word leadership. It's certainly where I go. But leadership is something that we all should be doing or should be on the receiving end of good leaders like every day, really. So if you're running your own business, then you need to be a good leader, even if you're a business of one. Equally, we don't all have to be leaders, but I think we have to recognize when we've got good leaders and bad leaders. And then actually we can make a decision where we want to follow someone that's an idiot, quite frankly, because there are some out there.

There are quite a few out there. Yeah, it is. And, you know, kind of, you know, for full kind of clarity here, you know, as you know, mate, I'm running a business where I don't have a team, you know, and that is a very, very conscious decision. I've run teams before. I like people a lot. I don't think I enjoy it. I don't particularly enjoy running teams. I love the work I do. So kind of, you know, full kind of kind of clarity on that. But I think kind of notwithstanding any of that, the things that make you kind of good in business, the things that kind of do those almost as kind of under the level, below the line things that actually make a good business are the skills that you need for that. I think are intrinsically kind of leadership based. And I think, you know, particularly I think at a startup phase, you have to bring people along. People have to be inspired to follow you. Now, whether this is kind of suppliers and that sort of thing or whether this is kind of new customers. And I think particularly doing kind of what I did or what I do, you know, kind of building that kind of kind of community based kind of marketing help. You know, people have to want to follow. They've got to see in you someone that can lead them through from where they are to the next place. So I think these are these are really important skills. But I don't I don't know. I think there are natural leaders. I think you can you can learn these skills. But I think it's really important. Well, for me, I think it's a very difficult thing. I think being a good leader is actually a really is really, really kind of challenging thing because it's not natural for most people.

Yeah. I mean, I don't think it's natural for anybody. Obviously, some people have picked up, you know, maybe have been around either good or bad leaders in the past. So have naturally absorbed either they leader they, you know, they want to be or they don't want to be. But it's not like anyone's born with like those special skills. Right. Everything is like I mean, of course, there's genetics in play, but I think everything is is acquired and learned to some degree. But it's all subjective to the environment that we've grown up in and what we've experienced, etc. Yeah. And I'm not saying that anybody can be a leader either. And like if everybody was a leader, like, you know, just look at the economy, like we'd have no economy.

Nor should everybody. Exactly.

And it's OK not to be. But I think if you're you're not a leader, I think it's good to recognize what are good leaders and are bad leaders. And what motivates you to either work for someone or get up and go to work? Because we spoke before, like, it's not just about the money. Obviously, you know, we we need money to live and to live the lifestyles we live, etc., etc. But you've got to be enjoying the work that you do. Right. If you're turning up someone, your boss is an absolute fucking tosser, then you're not going to be enjoying that. And it almost makes you question your own self-worth. So I think it's good to be able to recognize that there are bad leaders. And if you are working for one, then maybe it's time to be looking. But because, you know, for every bad leader, there are 10 good ones, essentially. Not everybody is like that.

Yeah, I think so. And I think there's kind of two bits for me is that there is it's really it comes out wrong. It's really important to know and be comfortable with your place. Yeah. You know, for a lot of and I don't think it's particularly changed. I've never seen myself as a particularly good leader, but I always think I'd be a very good number to do your own jokes. But, you know, and I think there's there's a lot of people that actually, again, is part of this or this social media culture. Everything else. Well, I must be, you know, I must be that spearhead. But actually, there are a load of people who are way better, way happier, way comfortable, way more able to deliver stuff, not in a leadership role. And I think, you know, kind of that is that is a thing that it is it is worth looking at. But I think, you know, it's what's really interesting, I think, about leadership is that it kind of depends where you start. You know, I've worked with some great leaders. I've worked with some kind of pretty average leaders. And, you know, I can think back to kind of very early jobs and that sort of thing. And actually what I think I then knew in business and then I've seen another leader, you think, oh, God, it's poles apart. You know, it's it's it's really, really different because you see, you know, I've just, you know, I think, you know, an early job where actually the leader was as they were. And I just thought that was what it's like. And it's only then you go to the next job. Oh, my God, it's so different. And it's yeah. And again, you know, I look at the businesses I work with. I look at kind of a lot of people I come across. There is there are vastly, vastly different skills. And I think it's a really good point that if you are not enjoying the leadership you have, you know, quite easily, you can go somewhere else. And your whole feeling about your role in the business, the whole feeling about this can change really, really quickly. And I think, you know, it's it's yeah, I think it's interesting, particularly if you are kind of in earlier stages of employment that actually, you know, the grass can be a heck of a lot greener.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I mean, I was thinking back when we first spoke about this subject to one of my earlier jobs that I had. Wasn't my first one because we've spoke about that. But when I was 21, I got a job at a call centre and calls. This was sort of like 96, 97. I'd have to work it out. I know I was very, very young in relation to what I am now. And this was like a big purpose built call centre like that was that was opened in Doncaster. And everyone was suddenly like, wow, it was like a big spaceship. And everyone was like rushing and queuing for jobs and the mass induction and interviewing. So I got a job there and was working in, you know, your typical sort of I mean, it was a very modern environment. But, you know, like it was a big open plan sort of cubicle sort of divided into spaces kind of thing. I think we're in like teams of 12 or something. And actually, like, you know, thinking about I remember like thinking about all of these team leaders at the time, just thinking that there was some sort of superstars or something for getting those roles. But actually, you know, they were just kids, just like just like I was. And actually, like my first boss there, a woman was like really supportive, etc. But then I got promoted quite quickly and went to work with another team. And my boss there, like I got on well with him. But looking back, he was an absolute tool. Like the way that he spoke to me and the way that he spoke to the other. So I was then like the it was called a full timer because we were one step closer to having a full time contract. We weren't agency based. And that was the thing. It was like that was that the holy grail if you could get a contract with said company. That was the amazing thing to do. But yeah, my boss was an idiot. And he spoke to people like shit and he had really good results. But he, you know, ruled that team to fear. Everyone was terrified of him. No one would talk to him, question him, answer him back. Like, so everybody in that team was fucking miserable. Yeah, I really hated it, but was fearful of their jobs and would not, you know, talk up against him or anything like that. And but looking back, because I had so much experience of being within that team and sort of seeing that style of leadership, like I think that stayed with me for a while. I think that's almost I believe that that's how you had to be as a leader, almost unquestionable. And I think it took me a long time to unpick that.

Yeah, because you don't you don't know what you don't know, do you? And you start in these early jobs. You think, you know, that's what it is. And there's no there's no way to not to there's no way to know that it's different because that's all you've ever seen. And again, you know, it's a culture in teams. And I think, you know, leadership is such a profitable quality, but people don't often put a lot of time into it. And I get, you know, you know, here's what normally happens in kind of business that, you know, there is. And we may have talked about for kind of this accidental management thing is that normally you have someone that's really good at the job. A promotion position comes up above it. So that person then goes up the ladder and you have a weak manager now managing a weaker team with no idea kind of what to do about it. So they go with what they've seen. And if the culture has always been that way, that that's it is. And there's no it's really hard for there to be, I don't know, an aggressive culture is probably the wrong phrase. And it'd be really hard for someone to come up and then try and put a passive kind of management or whatever it is in there. And I think it is it is really difficult for management structures to change unless somebody somewhere normally right at the top is a aware of what's going on below and be sees a value in changing. Because this is a problem. If someone gets really good results, that's what gets reported. What doesn't get reported is that everyone just hates their job and, you know, kind of staff turnover, et cetera, et cetera. But I think it's it's really interesting that you have to want that whole thing to change. But you can only do that if you actually know what's actually going on.

Yes. Yeah, that's right. And I think going back to that, like, yeah, his team was without question the most top performing team there. And from being within that team, you could see why. But nobody enjoyed being in that team. Don't get me wrong. When the results came out, everyone would clap and cheer and they were proud of what they'd done. But for the majority of the time, the people within that team were miserable. They didn't enjoy it. And I think when I say that that sort of stayed with me, it's almost like I put those links in there to be a good manager, to be a good leader within a team, especially a sales team. You have to be a wanker. Yes, that was essentially it. It's your rule with fear. Yeah. Interesting. They had this. There was somebody. It wasn't this particular guy. But, like, I remember somebody else giving me some ad hoc leadership training.

Okay.

And it was basically the whole thing was how to put the fear of God into an employee. Okay. Excellent. You know, he called it his Gestapo questioning technique.

Nice.

And the sad thing is, like, I have used this since. And almost, like, again, without question, it's only then when you look back, you think, Jesus, what a fucking dickhead I was for doing this. And essentially what, you know, what you would do is walk up to someone, ask them a few questions about something. And then the way was it was you would just finish off by saying, and what agency are you with? And then they would have to answer with their agency and then just walk off not saying anything. And then these people were literally, like, sat there shitting themselves that they were going to get fired. It's like, oh, so can you just tell me what was the last thing you said on that call?

You know, and they were like, I don't know. What agency are you with? And then just walk off. You know, and something as small and powerful as that. Yeah, it's terrible. And, you know, I would remember, like, oh, you know, this is the way to get results. But it's not. Like, you know, those poor people, kids, and I was a kid as well, you know, were probably going home at night thinking I'm going to lose my job. And they thought it was funny. And, you know, in return, I found it funny. It's not funny now, looking back. Like, it's a really horrible, mean thing to do. But it was a culture that was accepted. And I think that sort of stuff still goes on today. Those small things that actually can really make a difference to people's lives should not be tolerated anyway. Like, if you're experiencing that, it should be like, what? Who's the, like, it's just a fucking job. I'll go get something else. Like, don't do it.

It's really interesting because I've not thought about it until now. But actually, it has really coloured my view of leadership and management. You know, and I look at kind of some of those early things and how it works. And even now, and I look at, you know, because Amy works in a kind of big corporate firm. That's my wife. And, you know, I just think they're brilliant. Honestly, everything I hear about them, they're just in kind of how they manage their staff. I think it's just, you know, kind of exceptional stuff. But I even now, I hear her have situations or things going on. And I just think, oh, shit. Well, there's a bollocking coming. And actually, it's just, that would never happen. You know, I look at, you know, kind of how, you know, in particular how things were dealt with. And that, you know, kind of, yeah. I mean, just an insane way to manage your staff. But we just didn't know any difference. And that's really interesting. I've not thought about that until now. But, yeah. I'll hear something that Amy's going on. And I almost get that kind of, oh, I don't want another bollocking. And, you know, which is maybe what it is. But, yeah, it's really interesting. And I think, do you think leadership styles have markedly changed over the last kind of four or five years? And do you think that's been a kind of a proactive thing? Or it's just been as society's kind of view of itself and how it feels has changed?

Yeah, I think it, I think I would say it has changed. You know, and you only have to watch TV programs set in the 80s, 90s and things just to see how people's views, perceptions and stuff have changed over that. So, for example, even like talking about mental health. Like there were probably, looking back within that team, there were probably some people that working there has seriously affected their mental health for, you know, a long time. But no one could have ever have said that. Like, whereas now you could probably say, look, what are you doing? You're affecting my mental health with this sort of thing. Whereas then it's like, you know, if you say anything, you know that you work for an agency, you're not going to be coming to work the next day. So I think, yes, it has changed. I don't think there's been any massive fundamental changes up until what we've just experienced in the last sort of, you know, 12 months with COVID, right? I think that has almost accelerated this process, moved us forward, you know, possibly sort of five, 10 years of evolution in the leadership scale. Because you can't get results in the way that you could before when people are working from home. You can't bully and micromanage to the same scale that you could do when people were in the office. So people's leadership styles have had to adapt. So I think over the past 10, 20 years, yes, I think it's been evolutionary and it's been slow progress and people still have those old views. But when I think of new startups and remote working and all that sort of stuff, and because the dawn of the internet has just made this information so much more accessible, people can watch, you know, a lecture on someone like Simon Sinek talking about vision and purpose and why and how to get people to follow you with that sort of thing. So it's a lot more accessible than it was before. I know books have always been there, but it's, you know, it's just, it's more, you can watch something on social media now and take a learning from it in three minutes. Whereas before you'd have had to go to a bookshop and buy a book and actually physically, and again, like what you said, you don't know what you don't know. You weren't exposed to these sort of things. So I think it has moved on significantly. And if you were to plot that on a graph, I think, you know, you've probably seen like a hockey stick type growth curve over the last year or so. So I think things are getting better. Yeah, I agree.

I mean, I think the people have, there is more access. People have more access to see there are different ways of being in business. So people can look at, you know, anyone can see like the Apple story, see jobs, et cetera, think. I didn't know that kind of style of management existed before. So I think they have more access to it. But I think also businesses have realised the profitability of getting and keeping good staff. And actually, whereas before, you know, the measurement was, you know, is this sales team, you know, are they delivering? And again, it's always going to be the way, you know, when we talk sales, but it's always got to be the way. But actually that has been sort of tempered or kind of brought alongside the fact of, you know, yes, they're delivering. But every six months we're paying out four grand on recruitment fees or whatever it is. And I think people have, particularly in kind of current markets that, you know, you're seeing more in more of the job ads. There's a lot more of this is a brilliant place to work. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, they are trying to attract people, not just on salaries. And I can think of, I think of loads of good businesses that actually pay a little bit less for the industry. But actually people want to work there. People want to be part of it. People, and again, you know, that is, it's kind of a singular key thing in any aspect of business. If you can get people, customer, staff, whoever, that want to be part of something, the strength of that. And again, you know, the business case for it is massive. And I think, you know, there is a real business case now for making sure you've got really good leaders. And those leaders are kind of supported in being good leaders and giving the help and that kind of stuff. And I think, you know, that, I would say that is a real shift over the last whatever year is that it's become, it's become a recruitment point. It's become a kind of a profitability point that actually we're going to find and we're going to keep good staff. We're going to do good things for them. And again, I think that's, you know, that's been seen kind of starkly over the last kind of year or so. Because you have got, and I forget who it was, and forgive me if I'm making this up, but you've got that. It doesn't matter who it was, but there was, it was in the press that there was a business had installed some software on all their staff's machines to work out how much they were working. And then you've got the other side of it. Businesses kind of saying, look, we know your world has changed. We know you've got kids there now. You know, we kind of don't care how and what you do. We report on the same KPIs and we say, oh, it's done. And if you need to do that, that time, if you need to do that, you know, and that has made our staff closer. And I can see actually for a lot of people, they have been more productive because they felt so loved over this time. And, you know, lots of businesses have kind of said, look, you know, we don't know if you've got, you know, the right office kit. Here is a grant of money to go and do that. You buy it, we'll sign it off, whatever it is. And I think, and these are the things that really make a difference. And, you know, I don't have any kind of empirical evidence, which is unlikely, unlike me to talk about any kind of backing for it. But, you know, I can see these businesses that have really grown and maintained and kind of done brilliantly over the last kind of year because they have loved their staff and their staff have been so productive in what should be really, really unproductive times. Kind of having your kids around and all that kind of stuff. And you see those that actually are floundering a bit and they are the ones that have been less friendly, less caring. I think people forget the cost of staff. It is the single biggest cost of business, both in terms of actual monetary stuff, but also in terms of if your business is going to get screwed up somewhere, it is probably not, not always, probably not the leader that does it. It happens when the staff drop the ball, do something wrong, get pissed off, get annoyed that they're not engaged. I think, you know, there's such a vulnerability. I mean, every business is being sabotaged by their staff, very rarely on purpose, but something's happening in some way. So actually just seeing the real value in those people. Again, make sure you've got the right people. Again, we've talked about hiring quickly, firing fastly, fastly, probably not a word again. So we've kind of looked at, but with those right people, when you get them, it will be cheaper and more profitable. They will make more and they will cost you less if you treat them and they love it. And it's not always, you know, it's not necessarily kind of, you know, pandering to every need, but just showing that they are valued. Yeah, exactly.

And I don't think you should pander to every need. And, you know, we'll probably touch on that a little bit more. But you just reminded me, I think it's a Richard Branson quote. We've got the internet here. Maybe I could just Google it, but let's just chance it and just say. And I think it's a whole thing about CFO versus CEO. What if we spend all this money on training all this staff and they leave? And then the CEO would say back, yeah, but what if we don't spend the money and they stay? It's that type of mindset, isn't it? Invest in the people and you will see those returns. But I suppose getting back to what I was saying before about pandering, like it's not that one particular leader is. It's the same with anything, with marketing or with your product. Like not everybody is going to like you. Not everybody is going to like that business. No matter how good you are, like for you to be good, you're always going to be niching to some degree. So there's going to be some people in that really just don't like your management style. In the same way that some people have probably not even got that far through this podcast and thought, who the fuck are these idiots talking? Whereas other people will be hanging on to every word and just waiting for us to comment on something else. I think that's the trick. If you try and pander to everybody, you'll end up appealing to no one. Yeah. Essentially. So I think go out there, do you think, be who you are and just be authentic in a leadership point of view.

Yeah, I guess that is right. I think like attracts like. I can think of bosses that I've worked with. Yeah, you'd run through walls for them and you'd love it and you'd want to be there. And you'd work your Sundays and you just did it. But even in those teams, there were people that kind of didn't fit. And that's either good nor bad. I think what is quite interesting, though, is that quite often you if you don't understand the dynamic of that, that actually, you know, like mixed with light, I can think of a particular place where actually there was a group of us loved it, drove the business forward. But because of who we are or because of who we were, we didn't necessarily attract people that would help with the process side of stuff. And actually, those people never really fit in the business because it was always kind of quite dynamic and kind of fast and really exciting. And actually, the business was probably weaker because of that style of leadership, I suppose, didn't attract the people that you probably really needed in it.

And what style was that? What do you mean?

Well, it was very kind of very fast, very, you know, right, let's do it. Let's try it. Let's kind of get on with stuff. And, you know, we're really good at, yeah, in the simplest way, you know, kind of really good at the sales, possibly less good at the back end of it. I see. You know, not in a kind of, you know, kind of sort of, you know, bad way sort of thing. Not like your lightsaber, which I loved the other day. But, you know, and I think, you know, this is, but again, this, I guess this comes down to that leadership of being able to notice that and see that. And as happened, different people were put in place. There needs to be a recognisation. Again.

That's a new word. A recognisation. If you're listening to Collins, that's. Stick that in.

Yeah, there needs to be a, whatever the real words. Yeah. No, I like that word. There needs to be a recognisation of the fact that actually, it's a word. It's a different word. No, it's close enough. That needs to be there to see, as a leader, this is what I'm brilliant at. This is a skill that I don't have, that the business needs. Me, as a leader, has to control that and put something in to make that happen.

Yeah.

Because you do get great cultures for some people, whereas actually those people need to be supported by others. And not always, but it's rarer that the people that you need are actually of that sort of same culture. And, you know, it's, I can think, you know, a lady I worked with ages and ages ago, and she's just kind of got everyone's back up. And she would come in and she'd swear at people and that. And, yeah, I can remember at the time when you'd sort of sat there and you'd think, oh, don't worry about, I won't use her name, don't worry about blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, it's just how she is. And I can still remember the look on one girl's face had not been working there. And her face was just like, well, why is she like that? And I think, well, yeah, I don't know. We just sort of got, we're getting back into that thing. We just kind of got used to it.

But certainly not getting laid enough.

Needless to say, I could not possibly comment.

So, OK, before we look at examples, then, what do we think leadership's qualities are? What do you think, what are we talking about here? For people that listen and kind of think, well, OK, what do we actually, you know, what makes a good leader? What do we think these qualities are?

Yeah, and it would be interesting to get some comments or questions if we're doing this more live. Maybe that's something for the future. Throb live. Throb live. Horrible thought. I can see it. Like, you know, an enormous take of questions because you've always got different. Sorry. You've always got different points of view, haven't you, on this? But I think in general, I think leaders should be empathetic, supportive, lead by example. I think giving people the autonomy to be able to do their jobs, to be able to actually have that freedom to try and experiment and do new things without fear of repercussion. But of course, I'm sure there are some industries where that isn't necessarily going to be the case. And I think in, I suppose it's almost making sure, just crystal clear what the expectations are. So if you're setting clear expectations, then if those expectations are being met, great. But they're not, then have a conversation on how you can get to meet them rather than ruling with the nine fist. But I suppose there's a place for that type of leadership. And some people do respond to it. If you think, you know, back to like, I don't know what it's like, like in the armed forces now, I'm sure that stuff still goes on and still yields some results. I know it's make-believe, but like, I like, you know, the old sort of cop dramas. So, you know, I've just been watching like Life on Mars and Asset to Ashes. And Gene Hunt, you know, he gets results. And people would literally walk to the ends of the earth for him. But it is a TV program. But you can see how that style of leadership would work for some people. But yes, but it's always at what cost. If someone's actually happy, and I suppose this is the difference, right, with anything, there are different personality traits. And some people probably actually thrive being in that environment. So without passing any judgment, if your boss is a bit of a wanker, but actually secretly you quite like that, as you like being told what to do, maybe your personality is a little bit more submissive. And actually you can still come away from there at five o'clock at night and relax and do whatever you want and go to work the next day and not be hating your job and actually still going and enjoying it. There's nothing wrong with that. Like, I personally am not judging that situation. What I'm saying is if you're in that situation, you're thinking something's not quite right here, it's probably not. But if you're like, actually, yeah, my boss is a bit of a wanker, he shouts me now and again, he tells, you know, the odd inappropriate joke. But to be honest, I quite like it. And so fucking what? Like, go for it.

Yeah, I get it. It's a bit like everything. There is that horses for courses stuff. There is a style of management for, let's just say, the military, where actually at a moment's notice you need to get someone to run through a wall for you. Well, look, that's fair. And there is a certain kind of thing that, again, hence it's also part of that training that you are trained into that follower role for the leaders. And I think that's it. I guess that there, I can't think of many businesses for which that is the right kind of style. But there will be different styles for all of it. There are some businesses that are just kind of more kind of cut and thrust and that sort of thing. I think my kind of understanding, my take on this, and again, I'm definitely not the world's greatest manager. I think to be in management, in business, there has to be a shift in understanding that your role is no longer about the process of the business. Your role is now the process of people. It's actually, and again, it's an old cliche, but as soon as there is a management role, even if you are managing whilst doing a role, and particularly the higher you get at the management kind of tree here, it is about what can I do to get the best out of the people? Knowing that if the people are good, they're loved, they're empowered, that will then bring results. It's kind of trust that process rather than think, look, results first, because you can't get results without people, but people can give you the results.

Absolutely.

You know, and I think, you know, there are too many people that I think probably through no fault of their own who find themselves in management positions, which they can't know that because they've never had to do it. It's never kind of come across their bow in that way. And I think, you know, that for me, I think it's that shift. This is no longer about the thing that the business does. You know, my sole role here as a manager is to make sure that team is firing on whatever, on its maximum efficiency. And then it's, well, what do we need to do to fill that? And that becomes, you know, I think someone that can understand people, that can actually sit and put some time into people. And I think for most businesses, there is an understanding that people need to be treated differently. And I kind of go back to kind of, you know, sports days and that sort of thing. You know, there were some players I played with that they needed the arm around the shoulder. And there were some players that just needed to just get your head in. Yeah. Go and smash through that. Come on, stop. Why are you there? You know, why are you not running? And I remember one guy, I mean, he was quite a big lad. I was like, what are you doing? Why are you not? And he's like that. Yeah, thank you. And he just needed that thing. It was a really kind of weird thing. It's an understanding that it has to be a people thing that you do, not now a kind of management of an aspect of the business, if that makes any sense.

Yeah, I think you've hit some really good points there. I think that's recognising actually what motivates those individuals. Good leaders will probably have conversations, will talk to people, maybe test out a few things. I've said completely innocent things to people and they've burst into tears. I've said it to other sorts of people and they've gone ahead and ran with it.

Yeah.

You don't know that until you try, right? And it's the same with anything, isn't it? But if you're saying something to someone and you can see it's triggering them and getting their back up, then don't say it again.

Yeah. It did absolutely a world of good. Because it kind of made everyone go, oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is. And I think it's that understanding of it. And I think it is. I think there is these two things. You have to be someone that people are inspired by to follow in whatever form that is. But then there is that ability to be kind of shouty, shouty and or handy, roundy, shouldery. But I think, as I'm repeating myself, but I think that comes back from a commitment to realising this is a people thing now.

Not running my estate agency business. Not whatever it is.

I think the thing with the bollocking just made me think quite a lot. Because there are different ways of communicating that. I think a lot of the time with the bollocking, what you're trying to get across is this behaviour isn't acceptable. And I don't want it happening again. Now, there are many, many different ways of communicating that. And some things are just going to be, like, you know, if you're used to being shouted at and you're bollocked constantly, then it's probably, you're not even probably even going to listen. It's like, oh, fucking hell, here we go again. Whereas someone's actually saying, I'm really disappointed in that behaviour. That might make you sit up and take notice.

Yeah.

If I don't let someone out at a junction, you know.

Would you never do? Well, I do let people out at a junction.

Or, you know, sometimes you forget to say thank you, don't you? And then, you know, some people really, really get, like, really annoyed. Which you're almost, like, and that almost fuels me. It's like, oh, fucking hell, mate. And it's like, I forgot to wave my hand, sorry. You know, but then it's almost like you get into a little bit of a mini sort of road rage back and forth. Whereas, you know, like, I remember, like, one person a good few years ago. It's funny. Like, I had a thumbs down at a junction.

And it really is, like... That's exceptional.

You know, just like, just this kind of...

I'm not kidding. That's exceptional.

Yeah, so, but, like...

Like, it still brings...

It really upset me.

Like, somebody actually looking at me and putting their thumb down. Like, was probably the most upsetting thing I've ever had done to me in a car. I loved that. It just... It just... It just really feels like... It's just... The guy was so disappointed. And it's like, well, what have I done?

So, you know, there are different... It doesn't... It's not... You don't have to shout the loudest sometimes. There are different ways of motivating people.

Yeah, and I think it's interesting. Because, I mean, do you... Do you think you're a good leader? I...

I would like to say that I am. I think there's always things... I think when I look back with retrospective, there's always things that make me cringe. And think that I wish I hadn't have done. But I suppose if I hadn't have done those things, I wouldn't be where I am now, essentially. As in... And what I mean, I'm not talking about, like, in the physical sense. I'm always talking about to have this conversation. I wouldn't have done those things and then learnt from them. I think that's it. You can beat yourself up often about stuff that you've done. Going back to, like, 20 years ago, I can't even remember that person's name. But using that Gestapo technique of those simple words... And it might not have even bothered him. But it bothered me more.

Yeah.

It still bothers me just using those things. But I think without doing those, I probably wouldn't have learnt. So, yeah, I do believe I am now. And I think the things that I value about my own leadership style is... I'm very transparent about what they would expect from... What an individual would expect from working with me. I do assign time to make sure that I'm actually, like, dedicating time to speak to those individuals. Be it, like, a weekly one-to-one or fortnightly one-to-one. Set really clear expectations. And don't clock watch, which is a difficult thing to let go of initially. But now it's more about results. And sometimes, you know, I look at people's work and think, I don't understand how you've possibly spent a day on that. You know, that should have maybe took a couple of hours. And if it's... With those things, I think, if those patterns of behaviour are repeating, then it's something to bear in mind. But we know from our own workload, sometimes we can look back at a day and think, I've just wasted a fucking day on that. And you don't often realise the amount of stuff that's going. So it's very easy to judge, isn't it, and look back at somebody else. So I feel that I don't do those things now. I think that I am aware of things start to go wrong, but I'm not as reactive that it's like, well, what have you just done today? I don't understand why you've only took an hour on that. Because if you're working with the right people and the right expectations have been set, they're probably a lot more worried about it. They're probably worried about that themselves. And I think that's the thing you've got to bear in mind. It's like, what would I be feeling if I was in that situation? It's like when you've handed in really shit homework, right? And you're like, fucking hell, I'm going to get a bollock in here. You know, it's like, they'll probably be feeling it as well and trying to make that up. So yeah, I feel I am a much better leader, but that doesn't necessarily mean I want to be a leader. And I think we've had this discussion before about like, I have people that do bits and pieces for me now and things and outsource work, and I'm quite happy with that. But even that is time consuming. I think I'm just at the stage where I just much rather just get in and do the bits that I enjoy. But when it comes to like bookkeeping or other bits of admin, like it's just better just for me to outsource it. But there's still an overhead on my part. Yeah.

Yeah, it's interesting. I have no idea if I'm a good leader or not. That's going to be my question. Yeah, I don't, I don't.

But you mentioned that you didn't think you were, and I wanted to just delve into that a little bit more. What makes you think that you weren't or aren't a good leader? I don't know.

I mean, you know, I've kind of done it and I've run teams. And I always think I work very well with people. I don't know if I'm particularly good with, I don't like the difficult conversations. I don't, you know, I'm probably someone that's more likely to let something go than pull them up on it. I think I'm probably good on the empathetic stuff and kind of interested as a slight tangent. The more I've done leadership things, the more I can then look back at some of the behaviour of previous bosses and just kind of understand it. You know, running a business is hard and trying to run a business and with staff. It's really difficult. It's really, and staff, I still think it is one of the most difficult things to manage. So I do look back at some of these things. I think perhaps that person wasn't a complete maniac. They were just trying to do the best they can with the skills they have. And so I don't know. The honest answer is I don't know. I haven't, I feel like I haven't done it. I certainly haven't kind of managed teams in quite a long time. I don't know. I presume, I don't know. I mean, I'm kind of far too British to talk about myself. I presume I have some kind of leadership qualities in my ability to do what I do now, which is bring people along with me and that sort of thing and that kind of delivery stuff. But yeah, the truthful answer is I don't know. I always think I'm probably, I don't know, not too nice because immediately you're supposed to be nice. But I think probably kind of empathetically as I get older particularly, I always kind of hear people kind of rant at other people. Look, everyone's got their thing. And that's sort of been a thing that's over the last few years. I think, well, everybody's got their thing. You know, you've got this outside persona. You go, what kind of an idiot? Why? And everyone's got their thing. Everyone's got their challenge. So I think kind of that side of it. But whether I have, you know, whether I have the kind of that ability, that kind of cast iron will, as it were, you know, like that kind of thing, look, it is this way. This is what I don't know. I wonder if I'm kind of too easily swayed, but I don't know. I genuinely don't know the answer to that question. Yeah.

I mean, I could, like, I was, I think we've, you know, I'm not going to delve into it too much, but, you know, I've had a go at you before for being self-depreciating. Maybe we'll do a whole podcast with that one. Like, I've never seen you lead. And I suppose there's, I suppose it's very different. But what I have seen you do is run things like conferences and groups and things like that. And in those scenarios, like, you have complete ownership of those circles and completely lead in that example. And I think that's the inspirational part. And I think when you speak about things coming naturally, I'm not saying that you were born with that skill, but over the years of experience, you've acquired those skills, right? So that's almost something that you can almost, right, this is what I'm really good at. Maybe the bits that would need work, and again, this is only from what you're saying, is maybe it's like, if you feel that people are maybe taking the piss or getting away with it, or maybe not putting the work in, maybe it's those areas that would be worth looking at. But without seeing it, it's impossible to say. But yeah, I would be very surprised if you were the sort of boss that people were going home and complaining about. I could imagine you would be fun to work with and actually get loads of shit done, which I think is an important quality. There's always stuff that we can learn and improve on.

And I suppose, yeah, everyone's in perfect time. There are no perfect leaders. And again, this probably takes us back to, you know, right at the start of the conversation, the kind of leadership actually takes many forms. Many forms? Many forms. You know, there is leadership of people and there is leadership of situations. I suppose one of the things about me, I guess, is that the things that I find very natural are things that are often associated with kind of a leader. Like, you know, being on stage in front of, you know, I did an event in Birmingham, being on stage in front of, what, 2,000 people in the NIA, you know, whether it's kind of in a network, you know, that sort of public speaking stuff. And I think, you know, that, that I suppose is often looked at, well, there's a person that can be that figurehead and is very, you know, very comfortable. I mean, I'd, you know, I'd, I'd, I'd be here talking if no one was listening. I'd love to.

That's I'm listening anyway. Thanks, mate. That's normal.

Try and make it less obvious. So I think, so yeah, I, you know, I don't know. I don't know. I think, you know, it's, you know, I do, I don't know. I know I'm far too self-depreciating, but I think there's a lot of stuff that I can do really well. You know, whether that is, that makes me a, maybe I'm, maybe I'm a kind of a, a good leader, but an okay boss. I don't know. Maybe there is a demarcation between the two there, but I think, yeah, I don't know. It's interesting. Yeah.

I think it's having a, I mean, it's a certain, and it's everybody's view of, you know, what's a good leader and, you know, the people that inspire or motivate them is different. So of course it's so subjective, but, you know, I would, I like to be the type of leader that, you know, can sort of stand up there and inspire in the same way that I've seen you do and, you know, get everyone sort of rally behind. But equally, you know, if someone, someone needed to tell me that they needed a few days off because they had severe period pains, I want to be that approachable and feel comfortable with it. They can have that conversation without me like going, period. Yeah. Girl problem. You know, it's like, because as I could imagine how people would think going back, and this is probably one of the things that I have been good at. I'm definitely empathetic and listen and take, I've gone over and above for people's personal problems in the past. I think that stuff, not things that you can talk about or shout about, but I know that I've been good to people in those respects. And those are the sort of qualities that I would expect if I was,

Do you think that's come from, I suppose it's both. There's an empathetic thing there, which is really good. But do you also think you have, consciously, subconsciously, an eye on the long game there in the fact that actually there's a really good member of staff here. If they've got some problems, do you know what? I will do whatever it takes to help them out because, say it quietly, they'll want to be here. They'll want to, you know, I've got a good person you want to keep. Do you think that sort of long range view comes into things or do you think it's just kind of saying, well, that's the right thing to do for the person at the time or I suppose, or is it just too blurred to kind of... I think it's a really good question

and as much as I probably sound like I'm almost trying to just cover that up, I don't think that ever comes into play as in like, oh, I'd better really deal with this properly otherwise I'm not going to have them here in six months or anything. Possibly, I'm not saying that it hasn't, but I can't think of any examples where that does come in. And as blasey as I am with a lot of things, I feel I am very empathetic. And if somebody has got a problem, my instant reaction is I want to try and fix it or support them or help them. And that's the sort of space that I'll go to, whether it's a friend, someone maybe I've made a networking meeting or maybe someone that's just posted something on Instagram. And I'm not just talking about responding to like the you okay on the post, you know, which are clearly, you know, people just sort of looking for attention. But, you know, if people are genuinely asking a question about something and I feel that I can help, then I want to go in there and help or, you know, essentially fix that problem.

You know, that's just, I suppose that's just how I am. So when it comes to staff and things like that, I'm definitely on the more empathetic side. If anything, I have to be aware that I'm not asking too many questions and not trying to make it too personal or invasive or whatever, especially if someone's having that relationship or whatever, it could be anything. I try and respect those boundaries, but that has to be a conscious thing because my natural instinct is I just want to go and hug them or put, you know, and just like support in that sort of way. But of course, that's not always appropriate, isn't it? Yeah.

And I think probably, and again, as I've said in itself, this comes down to your confidence that you are employing the right people. You know, I can think of kind of, when I'm running a team, two very similar situations and we know one guy you knew he got some troubles and the answer is, look, just go, do whatever it is you need to do. And the other guy, and again, this is really unfair, he came, similar sort of thing and the answer is still the same. Yep, go, you know, just do sort of, you know, be where you need to be sort of thing. But there was sort of that, that whiff of suspicion almost and you know, again, that sort of goes back into sort of things, you know, kind of have we got it, you know, have we got it right.

But I did, I mean,

it's a topic that fascinates me. I mean, I think who, who would you pull out from our world? Because I suppose this is quite interesting. I'm about to ask you who you'd pull out from our world that we think is kind of a good leader here, which interestingly, most of the great leaders you probably never hear about.

There are lots and lots of people, like people that I've seen evolve into great leaders and almost like didn't have the confidence initially for want of a better word. So without actually naming names that I've seen, I tell you what, during COVID especially, I think this has really highlighted where the good leaders are. This is the thing that I always find with leadership. Like when you have those eccentric, like, yeah, everything's amazing kind of leaders, like inspiring. That's all very well and good when things are going great. But equally, those sometimes are the people when the shit hits the fan, go head down in the office, don't talk to anyone. Yeah. And almost like, fuck, everything's all shit. Like, what do I do? That's the, that is your defining moment. That's when true leaders actually step up and say, do you know what? Things aren't fucking great right now. Do you know what? We've suddenly lost all our income overnight. We're going to have to furlough some people. The true leaders are the ones that actually stand up, deliver that message, have those awkward conversations themselves and make sure that those things are done correctly rather than pick up the phone into HR shit. Can you just deal with that? Which people have done. It's like, you know, people are there to take, they're happy to take the glory and be up there and report all the good results. But when the shit hits the fan and I think they're, that's a really bad quality to have. And if you are that type of leader and if you can look back and say that you've done those things, really, really question about how you can improve in the future because those, that, that stuff will be remembered. It doesn't mean that you can't change, but that's the stuff that people remember for. Equally, I've seen people that have completely done it the other way. So really embraced what this period has done and actually like almost used it to

springboard. Like working from home with the technology that we have today, there is no reason that we shouldn't have been doing Zoom calls and things like that for the last like five years at least. But we haven't done it because we've been comfortable doing the things that we've done. Why are we driving, commuting to work every day on busy, like it doesn't make logical sense. We should have, we should have been taking these initiatives before, but we haven't. Whereas now, companies have gone from places where, that wouldn't let staff at all work from home just because, well, why? We've got an office, why don't we use it? We prefer everyone all together. We don't know what they're doing. We don't, yeah. Exactly. And all that sort of stuff. They've had to work at home whereas actually people have taken that a step further than like, well, fuck work from home, right? How about work from anywhere? Like, not everyone of course can do this, but like, what difference does it make? Like, I'm sat now in like my office in my house. This could be, although it might be a bit of a distraction, you know, this could be an apartment in Ibiza or something. If I've got a good internet connection, I'm getting the work done, it doesn't matter where I am. And I think the people and the businesses that have done that, they should be the ones that are patting themselves on the back and saying, do you know what? Like, we've done a fucking good job here. That doesn't work for everybody and some staff will, like, they want to, like, when you look at polls, it's 50-50. People want to get back into the office and want that interaction. If you've got like, four kids running about, screaming constantly all day, it's fucking hard work. So it's, it doesn't work for everybody but I think it's, it's giving the choice and actually like, utilizing the technology for the people that want to use it and the people that don't want to use it still having that office there. It's a difficult balancing act but I think as a leader you have to empathise and take all of these things into account and produce something that's good and that's not an easy thing to do. Yeah, I think so.

I think there will be some leaders that have been caught out over this last period because their staff don't want to follow them and I think there is, there has to be that kind of inspirational thing. I was a kind of massive rugby fan. I was, it was a guy called Martin Johnson, ex-Lions captain, ex-Leicester captain, ex-England captain and again, I mean he was kind of my hero growing up and he, you know, you'd hear, you know, the commentators would say look, look, when he's playing he's worth, as it was then, a four-point head start because he had this massive thing and he'd have people that would, you know, kind of, would run through walls for him and it was such a kind of, you know, it was such a presence, such a, you know, kind of incredible, I mean great player, great player, but you're such an kind of incredible presence but I think it was, it wasn't just that they would run through walls for him, it was the experience he had so when kind of the shit hit the fan, he'd be the guy and again, I see this with the England rugby team now, I think there are, there aren't people that can kind of, kind of pull, you know, call stop and boss it, you know, I get a couple of situations, I don't get too few, a couple of situations where actually the same things happen again and again and again and again which would not have happened on Johnson's watch because he'd have said look, I know it's rubbish, I know you feel you're getting pinged by the referee but that's the reality of the situation we're in now, we have to do this differently and I think, you know, that's the kind of thing and I think that's what we've sort of seen over this last year that, you know, those people that have treated their staff well for so long

or have kind of properly cared about their staff are probably the businesses that have done better whereas those are actually they've put, you know, they've never really valued their staff, their staff are now working from home, they don't want to work, they don't want to work harder, they don't want, they don't want to work my kids and I still work nine to five because, you know, that's what I'm, and I think, you know, that kind of thing and I think, you know, there has to be that you have to want to follow that person and again, this is, I think, it is often that leading by example and that's not you doing their work but it is that this is how we run this ship, this is what we do, this is how we do it and I think, you know, that sort of, that sort of thing, I think it is just so valuable and I think there will be some people that have been found out whose, you know, whose teams have actually not been as productive as they could, have not been engaged and that's nothing to do, perhaps accentuated by, but nothing to do with the current or previous year, it's been the X many years leading up to that so when actually, kind of, you know, the chips are down and they have needed everyone to kind of hunker down and make something happen, they haven't done it because of, because of kind of the stuff that they've done before and I think, you know, interestingly, I think that ports across into kind of, you know, leadership between kind of business and customer as well, those that have really loved their customers, treated them well, gone the extra mile, been that person that they want, you know, where the customer wants to be part of that whatever it is, those are the ones that have done better, those people have a real relationship in every sense of the word with their customer, those are the businesses that have done better during this time because they've been able to say, this is bad, effectively, we need your help, we're going to run a business this way, can you come and do it and it's the same with staff, you know, where you have that real, real relationship with the team and that's not being matey, but that is knowing which one needs the arm round, which one needs the hug, which one needs the no questions asked approach, you know, where you've got that real relationship, those are the managers, those are the businesses that run better, you know, particularly in difficult times and you know, it has been, and I'm not going to use the unprecedented word, although I just have, it has been like mad, mad, mad times, but at some level, those are the business, we've seen this before, not the cause, but we've seen these business crashes, we've seen these things start to happen, we've seen, you know, you think about

the internet compared to, you know, kind of other, you know, look, I take travel, you know, in the old days to go to travel, you went to a travel agent, now you don't, well you do, well you don't, but realistically, you know, that was a massive seismic shift, so we've all seen this before, albeit a different cause, and again, it is seen, those that don't have that relationship, whether that's a team thing or whether it's a customer thing, that lack of leadership in that, that is going to cause massive problems. Yeah, absolutely, this last 12 months has been a catalyst,

like for change that was going to happen anyway, it was just accelerated, these things had to change, but it might have taken five years, ten years, whatever, the good leaders have had to adapt. I remember like very early on having a conversation, I'm just trying to remember what it was, it was out of the back of something that I'd spoke about and was talking about like the new normal and how that this situation wasn't going to go away overnight, you know, I know we had the initial two weeks to flatten the curve, right, and you know, people were like, and I had a conversation with somebody then who was like, you know, I'm interested in what you're saying, but you know, how do I manage, how do I keep track on my staff's hours when they're working from home, and it was like, you don't, like, you know, this is your opportunity to change. People asking questions about spyware and those monitoring tools, which again are things that going back like 10, 15 years, like I tested those things out, like it's, it's not a safe environment to put people into, it just makes them feel untrusted. Those types of leaders have had to adapt. Fortunately, I think that for the majority, I think people have adapted and have taken on this. But I think, you know,

that for me goes back a step because if you are having to then track your staff, you are therefore admitting to yourself that your recruitment process is not good enough. You are not getting staff that you trust to do the work. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think, yeah,

and that's probably how we would think it, but I think that probably at a much deeper level, I think the types of, those types of leaders that haven't adapted and still have that view of, well, I need to track people otherwise they're not, they won't be working for me. They are probably the blame shifters of our society anyway. So we'd never look back and say, I fucked up on the recruitment process. They would just be like, oh, well, they're just a fucking idiot anyway. You know, not taking ownership on problems, which is the sign of a really good leader anyway.

Where do we leave this then? If the folk listening to this are either further thinking, well, okay, what's my leadership style? Do I need to be a leader? Am I a leader? Where do we leave this with people? You'll,

you'll listen to this and think these guys are talking absolutely a load of bollocks. I'm going to carry on shouting at people. Fine. Go ahead with it. But you know, just, and if you've got those, those types of people that are happy to work in that environment, everything's good, no judgment. That's all, that works for you. But if you're noticing a discord within your, within your organization, you can't quite put your finger on what's wrong. Maybe just start by opening up some dialogue and speaking, asking for that feedback. Could yield some massive results. And this might be difficult if you've never done it before. And you might not necessarily get those answers straight away without warming them up to giving feedback. The way that I work is this. I like feedback to be rapid and clear and fast. And we just move on. It's never personal. It's more about the thing. So for example, have you fucked up? I'm going to tell you about it really, really quickly. And we'll talk about the issue and we'll move on. But equally, and this is the most important part, if I fuck up, you have to tell me. I want you to tell me. I'm not going to say who the fuck do you think you are. I'm the boss, etc. Like it's, that's the type of leader that I like to be. So I think if you've got that environment, it's a lot easier to have those conversations with your staff and actually say, you know, what's it like? But if you've been that authoritarian leader, people are still going to be too shit scared. So that's going to come over a period of time. Yeah, I think you need to put you, if you are,

I suppose there has to be an actual, true, deep down commitment that you want to get more from your staff. Yes. Simplest terms. And therefore, realise that it will take time, potentially, but there have to be processes in place. You know, if you really want to know, because you could very easily set up an anonymous survey. You know, and again, you'd qualify it with, look, I'd like to look at how we're doing things. Oh, please do this. You know, there is no

non-anonymity. Yeah. Not a word. Yeah, it is a completely anonymous process. And it is, but it is, it is a, I think it is that commitment to actually not just paying lip service to this. Understanding that actually there is a real chunk of profit. There is a real cut from cost by having, by leading your team in a way that they want to go to the end of the earth for you. They want to be part of this thing that you're doing. And, you know, it's that understanding of that and then working out how do you do that? And, you know, you know, I look at some of the best companies I know of this. There are regular feedback surveys, you know, where people are, can honestly talk about each other, talk to each other. Yeah. and that becomes a huge part of that culture and it is, I would imagine that comes with quite a lot of discomfort to begin with. Absolutely. But actually, if you truly believe, and I think, you know, I'm rarely kind of fixing this, it is the truth that actually better, better led people create more value in all the different kind of facets of that. If you do truly believe that, then you've got to go through that hard work, you've got to go through that real discomfort because the win is massive, both quite short term and ongoing.

Just to wrap up, this isn't a one-time exercise. If you're listening to this and thinking, oh yeah, I'm going to do this almost just to tick a box, then it's completely the wrong reason. This has got to be something that's constantly reviewed, you're constantly looking at yourself, constantly looking at your team because being a leader is ever evolving, you're always learning and, you know, as we said, what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another. So, you know, if you're committed to being that good leader, then you can be that person. This is where I believe that you don't have to be born with that skill. There are lots and lots of things that you can learn and it's not all about being a extrovert or anything like that. You can be a quiet leader, you can be an outspoken leader. It's, it's, that's an individual leadership style which you can work on. Listening, empathising, understanding what your staff need, the people that work for you need. Using that as a base point, I think is really, really important. It's getting that overall view of what's happening. Yeah,

I think it is a conscious decision to decide you want to be a leader, a good one, and then looking at all the things that are in place that can make that happen. For a lot of people, I think it will be uncomfortable because it's out of a comfort zone anyway. Absolutely. Because you may well hear things about yourself that you don't necessarily want to be kind of spoken back to you and it can also be a discomfort that actually, you're not doing it right. You could be doing it better but similarly, for a lot of people, it will help them because they'll go, actually, do you know what? No, you're not perfect but we love this about you. We love that. We love this that goes. We love that the business does this. What about that, that and that? And actually, I think change can come or begin quite quickly but it has to start with that commitment to, yes, this is something I think is important. Exactly. Yeah.

Which I think is a good place. I think it's a good place to wrap up. Fabulous. Well, thank you very much for coming to visit me yet again. It's lovely, mate. Maybe I'll get an invite to your house one day. Who knows? Who knows?

I don't see it happening.

Well,

it's been a pleasure. We'll be back soon for another, in fact, we do this in the outro so let's just, let's just play the outro.

Hit the button, Paul. Pushing the button, Bertie. See you later. See you later. See you later. See you later. See you later. See you later.

We'll be back next week for another edition of the Throb Podcast.

If you want to find out more, you can find me at paulchapmanuk.com

and you can find me, Bertie, at bertiecord.co.uk Thanks again. See you next week.