The importance of not being a d*ck

Welcome to Throb, The Reality of Business podcast. Real business chat from real people without the shiny veneer of gurus anywhere near it.

With your hosts Bertie Cordingly and Paul Chapman and maybe some guests along the route, we'll talk about our experiences of running business, helping others run a business and sharing real stories based on real experience.

Thanks. Hello, Paul Chapman. Hello, Bertie. Hello. You alright? Hello, mate. Yes, I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. Thank you. That's it. A bit more enthusiasm. That's what we need. It's Friday. I like a Friday. It's Friday then. It's Sunday. It's Friday then. God, I'm a boring old man. So, for the purpose of the tape, it's Friday when we're recording this. How would they know? It is shocking news for everybody. Yes. So, yeah, how are things?

Wife okay? Right. Yeah, broadly. What? Is your wife okay? Amy's very well, thank you, Bertie.

You're good. She just popped up on my watch. Did you? A little photo of you two.

Yeah, slightly awkward. We've spoken about that.

But it's you. You're like a puppy. You can't be crossing.

So, what happened? I'll just explain because it was quite funny. A few minutes ago, Paul wanted to charge his phone. So, I said, you know, charge it on the one on my computer and it will charge faster, which he did. Obviously, when you're connecting to a computer, you're always a little bit nervous. But I don't want to see what's on Paul's phone.

There's nothing there. There is nothing to see.

However, on my Apple Watch, a few moments later, just randomly, a picture of Paul Chapman just appeared. And he's like, why is there a picture of me on your watch? It's because he tagged me in a Facebook post. That's why. So, it was just a notification.

This is the problem being my age and not really understanding technology.

So, this is interesting, right? Oh, it's gone now.

Fast and loose with the word interesting, isn't it?

No, it was. It's gone. It's gone. It's gone. Annoyingly. So, it just came up. It started listening to Paul Chapman and it brought up four random pictures. One of them was the PG Tips monkey.

But it's gone. I pressed it again. I lost it. Yeah, I could have captured that anyway.

Good. Well, there's one for the outtake.

Do you like tea? I do like tea. Do you? Yeah. There you go. Maybe it was an old... Anyway. So, yeah. Should we have a little chat?

Anything is going to be better than this. I mean, literally anything. We could sit and read crossword clues to each other. I am.

So, have you got anything you want to talk about?

Well, it ties in quite nicely because we're talking about, incredibly for us somehow, not being a dick. Yeah. And the importance thereof.

We are. We are indeed. And I think, I mean, there are dicks everywhere, right? And I suppose it's very subjective.

I'm sure no one thinks of us in that way.

Well, if they're listening now, they shouldn't think we're dicks. It's like, because if you do, I mean, why? You're like, just turn off. Just turn off. And this is the whole point, right? And, you know, we've said this, like, you know, we did a recent episode about marketing and not playing safe. I think we try and be, I like to think that when we listen to these podcasts back, it's exactly the same as when we have a conversation normally. Like, you know, we're just ourselves and you either like it or you don't. And if you like it, great. You've got the opportunity to tune in and listen. If you don't like it, then, you know, that's your choice.

You can't hide this. You can't sustainably hide this. And I think, you know, I am as I am, you know, and I quite like myself. I'm very kind of comfortable with what I am. You know, what I am, I'm sure there's loads of stuff I can be better at, et cetera, et cetera. But you can't try and be something you're not to try and get someone to work with you because the moment they do, they're going to go, well, that's completely different. You're actually a nol, which is fair enough. Exactly.

And, you know, some people like dicks. That's what, you know, like I say, being a dick is subjective. I always use the line, actually, strangely enough, in my, if I do a discovery call with somebody, I'll get to the end and say, regardless or not, or whether you think I can help you grow your business. If you're sat here and you're thinking you're a dick, then just don't work with me because it doesn't get any better. This is exactly how I am.

It doesn't get any better.

Like, you know, I'll call you out on things. I'll say things how it is. I'll get excited and I'll swear and all the other stuff. And that's just how I work. So if you're sat there thinking, you know, yeah, it could probably make me some money, but it's a bit of an idiot. Yeah. I'm not the choice for you.

It reminds me of my proposal to Amy. It doesn't get any better. It's kind of this or nothing.

But I think that this, this, this got me thinking that some people I think, you know, are dicks and they're dicks to other people for no, like just self-centered. So I went to London recently for a networking event and I was late, obviously, because that's just, just what happens whenever I go anywhere, anytime. But I, yeah, there was, it's not, it's not just me. There's other people that are late for things because there was this guy flustered. Basically, we'd got, there was on the address, there was like the address of the building. But then the event was like next door and like there was two, I don't know, it's London, isn't it? Like things, it's essentially just one building. Don't, yeah, don't, don't follow the same rules. Anyway, so we got there and the, the address that we're looking for isn't listed on the buser, right? So like I'd already seen there was another site, so I'm trying to look. And the guy that I was with, like who I'd just met, was like, well, it's an outrage. Why haven't they put you, it's like, okay, it's a mistake. Let's just figure it out. Like he was just so angry already.

I love people that call things an outrage. Yeah. Like. It's just exceptional.

I mean, you know, so it's not, it's not started well, you know, so already, you know, and we've said before, about judging people, you know, already I'm thinking you're a bit of a knob, but then, you know, his, his, his knobness then just proceeded. So he then rang every single buzzer on the thing, like every business. Yeah. Brilliant. So, and he's there like, and then shouting at people that his, so his free networking event that he was supposed to go to, you know, they'd be invited to. He's then shouting at people like, where's this building? I can't find it. They've given me this address. You must know. And, you know, so the people answering the, like, and then other people are coming on the buzzers. And then someone buzzed us in. So, you know, so it gets, so then we're at the bottom of like this emergency stairwell. And I'm like, look, I know the guy that's running here. Let me just have a look. You know, cause I'm, I'm there now. I'm part of this crew of dicks. Like, you know, I'm 50% of like team dick at the bottom of these stairs.

I messaged him. He's like, yeah, it's the other building. So I looked on Google. And then, so someone came down the stairs and this guy looked absolutely petrified. And he started shouting at him. It's like, my time's really precious. Like, do you, like, do you, like, literally.

You go into a networking. Yeah. Yeah.

It's like, they've invited me and they've given, you must know where it is. Like, and then he said something like, so what am I supposed to do now? And the guys like, they're like, I don't know, like, I just write fucking code for this other company.

Like, I just came to let you in the door. You really don't care.

I just, people. And I just thought, some people, like, how can you go through life like that? I mean, it's like, it's a fucking networking event. Like, it's not.

People are weird, aren't they? They are. Just.

But that's an example. Yeah. That's what, when I say about being a dick, that's what I mean. It's like, completely the world owes me something. It revolves around me. So, like, you know, it's, and it just, I just thought, what on our bed? What on our bed? You don't have to be like that. Yeah.

I don't, I, oh God. I mean, maybe some things, but I try and look for the good in people. Not you.

I try and look for the good. This is why nobody likes you, Paul.

This is why nobody likes you. I literally, you know, what is going on in this world that that kind of makes it happen? And I think all too often it, there isn't anything. I don't know. Maybe there is. Maybe it's, well, I don't know. But I don't, I don't get that. But, you know, this is not being a dick thing is, it is, you know, it's really easy to pass it off as, yeah, okay, well done guys. Don't be a dick. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Move on. Literally, you could, in any kind of situation, but particularly in business, you could distill everything you need to do into the phrase, don't be a dick. Don't be a dick.

Which actually is Huel's, like, tagline. They've got that on their wall. Huel's? Who's Huel's? Huel. So Huel is like a, you know, like protein shakes. It's like a meal. Oh, H-U-E-L. Yeah. Yeah. Huel. Yeah. Huel. That's what I said.

Well, mate, clearly. I don't trouble too many protein shakes.

I do actual exercise.

You need the protein and the exercise. You know that. It's not, it's not just like, it's not just like, you know, just eat it. It's not like spinach and Popeye. That's not how it works. Target reference. I believe that their tagline is, was, just don't be a dick. Sorry. They're like their company culture. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you know the words? I do not. Right. Okay. I do, but I'm not going to say that. Whenever I think. Oh, do you? Yeah.

So you actually know the things to the hacker?

Probably not that I do to a kiwi.

There are sounds. Anyway.

In my head, it's always that whenever someone says that like the hacker or I think about it, I think of the beginning to, what's that sort of?

Ooka Jacka. Ooka. Ooka. Ooka Jacka. Ooka Jacka. I just got this feeling. That's the one. Do you know what?

Deep inside of me. Wow.

Do you know what I'd love? Well. I think more countries should do a traditional dance at the start of it. Right. So you'd have like the. Hooked on a feeling. Yeah.

So that's taken. No, no.

Because it's got to be kind of be right for that culture. So, you know, you'd have what is the Maori war dance, the hacker.

Right.

Us Brits would, I don't know, Morris dance. You'd have like a. The Scots would have to do like a Highland fling.

Surely it's got to be a little bit intimidating. Saying that though, I think if someone's got a Morris dancing in front of it, I think I'd be a bit freaked out. I think you'd be like. Huh?

But I just like the idea of it. Like, well, we're going to get a Morris dance and the bells.

Yeah. Anyway. Desperately trying to pull this back. Yeah. There is. I read lots of books about it. And there's. I mean, there's so much business stuff written about the All Blacks and the culture and how they do it. And a big part of that is. I forget. It's no dicks allowed. It's the exact same thing. Some different words. No dicks allowed. And that's it. It doesn't matter how good a player you are. If you're a dick, you don't get picked. And this is the pinnacle for that country. You know, for New Zealand, the All Blacks. I mean, it's. It's. It's beyond a religion. It's. I know I went out and toured. I didn't tour with the British Lions. Me and Joe hired a camper van and drank away around New Zealand. Met some incredible people. And watched some pretty average rugby. Well, some great All Black rugby. But it's. It's different. And like the All Blacks. These are the absolute pinnacle. But there is this real. Yeah. Just if you're a dick, you're not in. It doesn't matter how good you are. You know, if you can't be a decent, reasonable human being. Yeah. You're not anywhere near it. And, you know, some of the greatest players in the world have kind of come out of this system. And it just. It distills literally everything. And it is. I would. I would urge people to kind of take what we're saying for the first time ever. Urge people to take what we're saying seriously and ask themselves a question. Where am I a dick? Am I a dick with my returns policy? Am I a dick with. Am I a dick with. You know, how I advertise. Am I. You know. That little thing. I was just chatting to. Last this morning. She was talking about a. Experienced. She had a restaurant where. Really bad service. The main was like tiny. I mean, she's kind of. She's a. You know, kind of a slip of a girl. Whatever that phrase is. And she's like, you know, it just didn't fill me up. And it was like five bits of pasta or whatever it was. And then the managers got into an argument with her about it. Which is nuts. Because we know that never works. We know the power of social media. It's. Yeah. But. You know. Their. Their. Their process for dealing with complaints. That is being dickish. Yeah. And it'll happen. You know, it will. We will have something in our business that. I don't know. We make it harder for us to book or. I don't know what it is. But there'll be a thing. And we all do it. And you know, for every part of business. Just like. Where is my dickishness in that? What am I doing? What's happening? Because it will be going on somewhere. Probably not. Nothing like your. Your screaming stairwell guy. But. This stuff going on. But. You are dead right. It is. Business just. Is simplified to that. Just don't be a dick. You know. People need to like you. Need to like what you do. How you do it. It needs to be right for them. All these kind of things. You can. Should you want to make a podcast out of it. Distill it into the. Like that. Just don't be a dick. Yeah. I mean. Yeah.

And I think we should just elaborate on the point. Yeah. You know. You want your customers. Or your target audience. Or whatever it is. To like you. You don't want everyone. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. So. You know. I suppose. You know. I suppose. In that context. You know. Maybe you. Being a dick about something. Helps you rally a certain crowd. You know. Because. Especially. I was talking about. And it does. It does. Go into so many areas. Doesn't it. You know. I was just. Just being a nice human being. Really. You know. Like. I can be an absolute. Nob-ed sometimes. You know. Like. Shocking. Like. You know. Like. I'll take the piss out of people. I like to banter. I'll tell inappropriate jokes. All of that stuff. But. I suppose. I'm always doing that. From a good place. As in. If I ever think. That I've ever. Offended somebody. Or upset them. Unless. They in turn are a dick. Unless. You know. Which. Then. You know. That doesn't make me feel very good. So there's never any malice. I feel in this stuff. That I will do. Yeah. And I think this is where.

It gets grey. Because. There are. Different levels of dickery. Yeah. Hickory. Yeah. Fucking idiot. There is. There are different. There are different levels of dickery. And. Dickery can be right. For your market. You know. Level one is. Always treat everybody. With the right respect. Yeah. You know. That hopefully. Except for your mate. This all goes without saying. So there is that level of dickery.

I've got his business card.

So they went to an event together. Maybe. I didn't. I just met him.

I met him in the street. Sure. I'd say that too. Should we ring him? I've got his card. Yeah. Should we ring him live? Hello. I'm just kidding. Hello.

We're just outside your building. Can you tell us? What? Where do you expect me to go? Come on. Let's do that. Let's do a whole podcast there. But. So there is level one dickery of look just people and you know just be nice. But there is also that that there is a level of dickery that will attract the right people and get rid of the wrong people. And you know in a business context and again you know I always think you know good example of this is someone like Jeremy Clarkson. Yeah. You know he goes. I mean it's a few years ago now. But you know he was he went on TV and or radio and said that all the tube drivers that were striking should be shot. Now he doesn't think that for a moment. But he knows the value of publicity.

Yeah.

Crucially he also knows that the people that care don't matter. The people that matter don't care. And they actually kind of like it. And unbelievably as he was saying those comments he had a book in the charts or a DVD or whatever in which you know rockets up the charts. And you know there is a load of people that will never like Clarkson and will think he's a dick. And there are just as many people that will always like him and like his dickishness. Yeah. Yeah. So I think you know there is a there is a business case for dickery. These aren't even words. But it's got to be handled well. And you've got to do it in the vein that you know you can't as with everything you can't please everyone. Yeah. And nor should you try. You know I am sure far a few and far between. I'm sure there are people that listen just think just dicks just talking about stuff. Yet unbelievably we have people come up to us in the street and say I love your podcast. I really enjoyed listening to that. And I got loads from it. And it makes me laugh. And all this stuff which is you know it is it is kind of weird.

They said that I made them laugh. Really? Yeah.

What particular thing did you say?

That is one of the one of the things that I said.

I said definitely. I said some words and people laughed. Yeah definitely.

Nothing from your mouth. See that's being a dick isn't it? There's no reason for that. No reason to pull you down. Look at it. For the purpose of the tape Paul's just wiping tears from his eyes. There was no reason to make you cry in such a publicly outrageous manner like that. That's just being a general dick. Yeah. But I mean yes.

I mean that is that's what it says on your t-shirt. But this but you've got to look at it because it will be happening somewhere in your business. This kind of stuff will be happening. And actually you have to kind of you have to kind of hunt it out. You've got to kind of you know there will be something that's going on where you are not. You're putting people off. Yeah. Working with you. And you're putting the right people off or the wrong people. The people that you really want to get. And it's in there. And you kind of have to go and look at these kind of things. But I do think over you know there is the wider part of that is that. And again it's back into that cliche. If you can be anything be kind or whatever it is. And actually regardless of what you do if you are like actively trying to be a good person with this. Then kind of everything follows behind that.

Yeah.

And I think you know that's that's probably where we're kind of getting to on this kind of thing. Is that actually there is simply no excuse for doing what that guy did.

And as whilst most people will listen to this going well that doesn't happen. It probably does somewhere. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

You know if you've got those sorts of things going off you know in your in your company. Or it's just. It's you know is that a reason to fire somebody. No but it's probably an indication of behaviors that are then you know happening elsewhere.

So I mean it's we've definitely spoke about this before in one of our many conversations. I think it was probably the hiring podcast about you know not hiring a brilliant jerk. Yeah. Yeah. And I think like this is where if you've got like a salesperson that is phenomenal. This is always an example I have but actually is an absolute knob to everyone in the office. Everybody hates him. Like it's like you know is but he does good figures. Is it right to keep them there. You know my answer is no. Yeah. Generally because I think that I think then you're you're compromising your culture and your values then for the sake of sales. And I think it's a very short term solution. Yeah. Yeah. But you know that the longevity of your company and of your employees you know mental health is far more important than you know a few extra sales. So you know I don't think anyone should have to tolerate you know that that type of behavior. So yeah you know if there are people that are just being general knobs that either you've hired or maybe it's even like you know it's you know fortunately in this business I haven't I haven't had it with people that I've worked with. But I've definitely made the decision not to work with people because I thought in the same way in the discovery call I've got to the end of it and thought you're a knobhead. Yeah. Like I'm not working with you. Like yeah you might want to pay me something but I'm going to hate it just as much as you are and you're a dick. Like if that guy came to me there's not I say there's no amount of money you know because everyone's got a price right. Brilliant. 20 million. Okay. Yeah. Everyone's got a price. Yes. But it would be a very very considered decision that you know to work with someone that would be a knob you know it would have to be an extremely high price. There would be a definite dickhead tax applied to something that I'm not going to like.

And I think you go but I mean I can you know my old boss would you know he would come in and basically tell us as a group if your face doesn't fit you're not part of this you know you will but you will be leaving. And that's not it's not like you know as in your face if you're not one of us then we don't want you. We don't know and actually that's both good and bad because actually I think I've said before you know we ended up kind of creating a team that was too much like us.

Yeah.

And didn't have the other skills and actually it almost was I think I can see what he's trying to do it actually caused us more problems than but this is like you've said before you know every single business whether it's one person band or millions of people. It has to have a benchmark in terms of behaviors visions missions culture you know you've got to have that what is it you want them to be and then make sure you kind of stay towards that because the alternative is you are going to end up in that kind of dickery. You are going to end up in doing stuff that isn't what you want it to be and it doesn't matter if you're one man band or it doesn't what it doesn't matter what it is. But I don't think a lot of people I don't think a lot of businesses actually have that look what do I want people to think about me how do I want people to feel about me my business and what it is that I do. And I think you know that's such an important thing and you see you know we see this as it is it kind of goes into we see as it goes into kind of a more ecological world and people are looking people are looking for businesses that are being less dicky. You know not that long ago do you know it wouldn't have mattered if you ended up dropping you know kind of 55 tons of raw sewage into the river every week because no one kind of knew or care actually people are looking for people are making decisions. You know that the thing that you sell is so such a tiny part of the of the purchasing process. It's all the other stuff you know like whatever that guy sells you're just not going to or you're not going to want to buy you know and we've talked we've talked before about sometimes you end up. In a position where you have to have to buy you know like you know the house that you may or may not be buying you know that if there's one estate agent that has that you kind of got you have to go.

Exactly.

So there is that but people are making decisions now on the stuff that has simply nothing to do with what you do and how you do it or less do that nothing to do with what you do a bit to how you do it. But also about well how are you doing stuff entirely unconnected to that. You know they want to know that you you know the wine you have made the glass or the cork is from a sustainable tree. Yeah.

Yeah I'm sure that it was I was in a supermarket as in the last week and I don't know it was a beer brand anyway and on the thing it said all our electric is 100% from a renewable sources or something. You know and that's that seemed a very odd thing I thought to stick on the side of a box of beer like a crate of beer. But actually things like that are a deciding factor for a lot of I would certainly say not necessarily younger but there's there's a new that these things are much more important now than they ever were. Like it's there's much more awareness like I wouldn't have thought about anything like that. I mean I do think there's an element and I'm not going to say you know this is a separate conversation to whatever company that was. Because you know like there's a lot of what's the term green washing. Yeah. Yeah. You see as in you know we're sustainable with this it's like no you're fucking not don't like you can't just. So I think you know if you're going to start claiming sustainability and all other stuff I think you've got to have that through your core. Funnily enough one of the one of the people that I turned down working with last year was was a brand who were doing sustainable. I won't mention exactly what they were doing but it wasn't sustainable at all. You know the whole like it was literally bad shit as sustainable. And you know they're things that I personally can't get behind.

Yeah.

It's just it's just it's just not going to work. Like I think that to the core of that business is wrong to start with. Yes.

It's not even the fact they're doing it it's the fact that they're saying. Yeah exactly.

It's like why call it sustainable because people buy sustainable. How are you sustainable? We're not. But we can we can spin it to say we are. Like no no no no. That's being a dick. Yeah exactly. That has been a dick.

And the problem possibly with the conversation we're having is that we are kind of getting too hung up on the dickness.

Yeah.

Which is not at all our way dear listener. But actually this is you know people are making decisions on this. This is where this is all kind of the central point is people are making decisions about stuff that have nothing to do with what you sell.

Yeah.

They are looking there you know they want to find. And this is this is the same as you know it's a it is a buyer's market. What's the word I'm looking for. Like if you're if you want a new job it is a it is a proper market for employees.

Yeah.

Now if you want you know there if you want a job they've kind of got the power not that long ago it was the other way around. And actually people if you look at it's really interesting because I've been doing some recruiting for some clients. And you look at the job ads that are out there. So much of the stuff is about culture lifestyle fun balance inclusion diversity ecology. That's the stuff and that you know that only happens if that is a thing that makes a difference to the purchasing the applying process whatever the right phrase is here. And it is you know people are again perhaps we shouldn't keep saying we kind of do people are looking for companies that aren't dicks.

Yeah.

They're looking for places to work that aren't rubbish.

Exactly.

And this has you know we have to get our heads around this. You know some people will like it some people groan about it. This is this is where we are. And it's you know as we keep right to you every decision is made on so much more than the product or the service or whatever it is. And coupled with that there are no there's no place to hide. You know your unsustainable sustainability company one person looks at it and that's it it's done forever.

Yeah.

Because it's not like oh actually yeah we made a mistake we thought we were sustainable actually we're not you know. Look at um who was the car manufacturer that was fudging their kind of results and stuff. Oh the um.

So many memes about it.

It just I mean it beggars belief. Yeah. Like how do you think in today's world that's not going to come out.

Yeah.

It's like that kind of you know it's like going to do a breathalyzer and holding your breath. No. You've got to breathe out. Mm hmm. All right. You're running out.

Yeah. I just got amused on some of the memes that I do remember but. Yeah you can't hide this anymore.

It was the guy who just covered in soot wasn't it.

I mean they were dicks in the kind of the frame of what we're talking about. How much did it cost them. I mean billions didn't it. Exactly. Which is and do you know what it's not it's like anything it's like all these kind of things. Yeah I look at things like I had a bit of a tangent like Lance Armstrong. Seven time Tour de France winner or was he kind of thing. And actually he there's a really interesting documentary about his world a lot later a lot a lot after kind of it all kind of went on. Then it kicked off and that sort of thing. And it was really quite an interesting thing. And actually you look at his punishment.

Yeah.

As opposed to someone else's punishment. And it was really interesting when you do look at it you take all the emotion and time can do that. You take all the emotion out of it. You think his punishment was probably in my opinion still rightly way more than everyone else. But it came down to how he behaved not what he did.

Yeah.

You know and this is like it's a bit like kind of Tiger Woods. You know Tiger Woods had always sort of set himself up as you know kind of you know kind of you know you know whiter than white family guy. So when some dirty washing did come out.

Yeah.

It was always a lot worse.

Yeah.

And it's the same with you know same with kind of like something you can and you can see this with loads of different things. In fact you know the fact that it's kind of how Volkswagen did what they did that made it so much worse than it was. Yeah. Does that make any sense. Yeah. Yeah.

Again you know it's it all kind of kind of comes back to this thing you know people make their decisions about so many different things. And we're no longer in a world where we can go oh well I'm just going to keep going about a great product when they're not. Yeah. Because you can't hide. They are going to look. And all of us even the most kind of the staunch model one to change even them are making decisions based on stuff that have got nothing to do with the product. Yeah. Yeah that's right.

And I think this yeah this is it comes down to isn't it you know pretending to be something that you're not. And I suppose you know with Tiger Woods and whatever.

Yeah.

You know to create that that brand image when actually you know secretly that isn't really what you are. It's always going to come out eventually. It's always going to come out. And this is why I think it's important to yeah to remain true to who you are and your values. Like we've said this before in you know it's probably I would suggest you know in like probably a culture thing as in there was probably a few people that knew that was happening. But the culture was wrong. This is my hypothesis that nobody dared to speak out. Nobody actually said like let's just say there's a room of like 10 scientists and one maybe like the head scientist is like okay if we do this you know we can probably get away with lesser figures. Ha ha ha. And then no one's dead to do it. Should we do it. Okay. Like and it's if you've got the wrong culture in there you know like that those decisions then can see no one can actually stand up and say whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. Like no. Like when I work with companies like openness and frankness and the ability to challenge people at any level I feel is very important. And we are no like the world has changed like I think a lot of people still use management and leadership techniques that are outdated on our suited to things like working in factories or working down mines. When you know we had to be there at a certain time and we were motivated in different ways. It's like it's very different now. The world has changed. And you know one of my you know like whether you like this or not or whether you can adopt this in your company or not again is entirely up to you. But one of the things if I'm running something I always say this. It's like if you fuck up then I'm going to tell you about it. Right. Don't I know it. We're going to discuss the problem and it's never personal. Okay. That's accepted.

You know and that's something that people accept. However if I fuck up I want you to tell me. You have in fact like if I do something that's wrong you don't think it's right then you have to challenge that. Like that's how this works. It's very equal in that manner. Because unless you have that two-way communication things don't work. Now not a lot of companies adopt this and do this but I think it's super super important. Like I'm not a big believer. Like I'm not a big believer in yearly appraisals and quarterly appraisals and things like that. So you know I think there is a time for appraisals and things and you know agree or disagree.

In a company when I've had to do appraisals or when I've been sat there for my yearly appraisal. What have you achieved this year? And you're like no fucking clue. Like you end up just like listing stuff that has no real relevance. I think what is far more important and is far more productive is to have a constant stream of good bad feedback. Obviously you know good should always be outweighing the bad. But you know if you've done well it's like do you know what Paul did a really fucking good job there. Like equally if you've fucked something up which is for the purpose of the tape quite often.

Being a dick again. Say don't be a dick. No one likes you. But you see around and I think you know this is all. It has to be embedded as part of the culture. You can't tell people not to be a dick and then be a dick yourself. You have to think about these things and put procedures and policies and things in place and actually live by them. In fact it's not just writing a few words on a wall. I mean like I've lost count of the amount of companies that I go into and on their wall they've got innovation. Yeah.

Forward thinking.

It's like fuck.

It's not a thing.

It's almost like they're moving to an office and these quotes are already there. Should we just leave them there? Yeah.

Google wannabe starter pack. You can buy it off Amazon and you just stick it on the wall. We're innovative. Yeah.

We're forward thinking. We are co-op funeral parlour. It's like. I mean.

Some of them are sure they're very cool.

I do think you're right though. Actually as you said that I wonder if it is. I think you're right. I think there is a generational thing here. I think there is that.

What's the word I'm looking at? Kind of arrogance is perhaps not the word. There is that arrogance of having been at the top of a big company. Of being at the top of a big corporation.

Yeah.

And that you know you the person you get into a bubble so far removed from the world and the day to day that you can do no wrong.

Yeah.

And actually because of that you don't go and engage with the world. So you don't know what it's actually really like. And therefore you can take these decisions to cover up the emissions or whatever it is. Because in your mind. Well no one is ever going to know. You're in a different world now. And I think there is that kind of that generational thing. And I don't know. There might have been very young managers. I don't know. But I do think there is that thing there. There is that latent arrogance of the old world. Almost like that mad men world that we talked about the other day. And you've got that kind of there. And this is why I think diversity is massively so important. And I don't mean. I mean yes of course it is. I'm not talking about this in kind of you know in specifics. But actually as you and I said whenever we last talked about it. Kind of if you're having a conversation about something in the business. You know marketing. Next thing. Should we do this thing. There needs to be that diversity of input. Yeah exactly. From as many people as possible to say well look. You know had there been. And I'm sure it would never work for you. You know kind of had to be like the young social media intern. And of course this isn't going to happen. But go with me. The young social media intern in that business. When that decision to well look we can just spin these figures this way. They might have said. Okay but what if it gets out. It takes one person to say a thing. In social media it'll be around immediately. It ends everything forever. Or whatever it is. And of course that's never going to happen. But this is that you know you have to have. You know we see this. You know we go into businesses. We sit with management teams. And it's nuts. It's like dogs and their owners. I notice you and Lola have the same colour hair. It's dogs and their owners. They all start to look the same. And it is similar in businesses. That people start to think the same. So you know kind of in inverted commas. Through no fault of their own. Management teams start to make these ill thought out decisions. By coming at the thought process. From exactly the same kind of cultural thought.

Yeah.

You know and this is why this kind of this diversity of thought.

Is massively important that you get everybody to say. Well look okay you know I don't you know. I don't agree that we should cover this up. But put that to one side. Or even I do agree that we can cover this up. What do we do about social? How do we stop this ever ever coming out?

Yeah.

You know and again that's still the wrong way to look at it. Because it always will. It's like you know like cycling was a really kind of good one. These loads and loads of people for a long time. Took a lot of drugs. Yeah. And you know it only took sort of one person. Who wrote it in the book. It only ever takes one person to find Christ and repent. And everything else comes down kind of behind it sort of thing. And it is you know I mean it was epidemic in the sport. You know to the point that.

I think it's epidemic across all sports isn't it? And everything you know.

Yeah I mean I hope so. But I think to the point that it's still questioned. I don't know if cycling is 100% clean. Almost certainly not because nothing is. I am certain it's a lot cleaner than it was. But everything is treated with suspicion. If somebody does something epic on the bike. There is still that in the back of your mind. Oh God I hope it's not. You know it is. And that you know. There will be that. I mean maybe not. You know there will be that for the Volkswagens. There will be that for the you know the Tigers. There's always that thing in the back of the mind. Exactly.

So you know whatever things rules are in place. Someone's always going to circumvent them aren't they? And always find a different way. You know just to give them that edge. You know and that you know I'm not like you know condoning all of this stuff. But I think that's what we're talking about here isn't it? You know that's just. I suppose that's just giving someone an edge. Like you know Lance Armstrong. Yeah did cheat. And did you know do people out of his you know their first place possibly. But he still worked fucking hard. And I suppose that's forgotten sometimes. Yeah it is.

And I think you know that's the. I can speak to people you know infinitely more. Did everybody cheat? No. Did a lot of people cheat? Yes. Were a lot of his main rivals doing something similar?

Yes.

You know was he just better at it? Probably. You know he kind of kind of committed to cheating more than anyone else. To which is kind of worse in a way. But you know. You know my understanding of it is that actually kind of the stuff they take. Doesn't make them a better cyclist. It just enables them to take more suffering than the next guy. I think. And I don't know. But it is really interesting. And again I don't know enough about it. So please don't kind of send me nasty emails. If you do. Bertie.

I don't give a fuck that come. It's that.

It's how he went about it. That gave such a harsh punishment. Yeah. And that's. And then you know. You get into it. I suppose you're in so deep. You can see kind of how it comes. But. Yeah. It's just. It's just interesting isn't it. You think actually with all this kind of stuff. Think more. We always say that. But just. Just don't be a dick. With every part of it. You know. And again. Perhaps we need to stop saying it that way. Because it almost flippantizes it. Well I'm going to. I'm going to.

I'm just going to add to. I'm just going to add. Because you know. I was going on. I sort of said earlier. About you know. If you fuck up. And if I fuck up. And all that sort of stuff. And you know. Like it might have sounded quite angry. It you know. I suppose it's part of a bigger conversation. What I'm. What I like to adopt. And what I like to see. Within companies. Is. This. Culture of open. Frank. Conversations. So. You know. The whole point about that is. If you make a mistake. That you can actually just hold your hand up. And say. I fucked up here. Rather than lie about it. And you know. This is possibly one of those things. That. Or you know. Maybe someone has seen. I mean this went off for years. I don't know. You know. I suppose it must have been. You know. The whole emissions scandal. But. If that stuff's happened. If the culture's wrong. Then someone spots that. They then can't speak out. They can't actually say. Actually say. You know. Paul I know we did this. I know you know. I went along with it. But. It's probably not the right thing to do. It's probably not the right thing to do. Do you know. I had it with something. I was doing a couple of years ago. And. I was trying to do. Set up. I'd never run like a live webinar. Like. Events thing. So started setting up. Like the webinar. And then like. You'd look in. Webinar software. I mean it's easier now. It was really complex. To try and figure out how to do it. Even with my. Huge technical brain. I couldn't quite figure it out.

You are tech birdie. Yeah.

And then when you get into this webinar software thing. Then you find all these features like. Oh. You can start adding in like. Fake comments. And. And make it seem like you're live. Yeah. And all that other sort of stuff. And it's like. Oh. This is fun. You start.

Paul Chapman just listened to this. Three minutes ago. Yeah. It just pops up. And all that other stuff. And you start doing it.

And you get carried away with those things. And at the end of it. Like. And then I did pre-record a webinar. And then did it. And then. Got to the end. I was like.

What the fuck have I just done? Like. Yeah.

I've literally created something. Like. If I was to watch that. I would be pissed off. Like. I would be seeing through it. And I think. Sometimes. A lot of these things. You. Just because you can do them. Yeah. I mean. You should do them. And. You always have to just keep. Because. We all fuck up. We all make mistakes. We all do things. Or say things. Or upset the wrong person. Or whatever. Whatever. But. It's. It's taking ownership. That's. Ultimately. What defines it. Is if you can actually say. Do you know what? Like. I really did fuck up Ben. I'm sorry. I think.

If you are going to be. Either. Well. If you're going to be. Kind of be a leader. Whether that's. You leading yourself. And actually working with others. Or. You know. You kind of. Particularly if you work in a team. The. The practicalities of it. Is that. People are. If you employ anyone. Or you deal with any person. Mistakes will happen. People will do it. Do things. It'll go wrong. Whether they've tried it. For the right reason. Rather than doing that. And as long as you cover that. Overall practicality of. Look. We're all in. We're all bought into this. We're all trying to do. What we think is right. Yeah. That's just. Massively powerful. Because. Everybody working together. Will get a better result. But you can't do that. Without. Knowing that you're going to. Screw something up. You know. You know. You know. My old boss. He was a. Yeah. I mean. Again. Incredibly astute guy. Yeah. Difficult guy to work with. You know. And he would. Yeah. He'd get on our backs. But actually. If you made. An honest mistake. No problems. You know. I. You know. I. Particular. Sizeable. Sizeable. Screw up. That I did. And I went to him. I said. Look. I've done this. I couldn't. Not. Couldn't believe it. Because. You know. He was. Just. I'm like. Right. Okay. Well. How do we fix it? What do you. Yeah. No bollocking. No bollocking. No bollocking. Now. If I had. Then. Then. I mean. Again. This is where I think. He was particularly smart. The next time. We had to do that thing. He came to me. To do it again. And I'm like. Are you sure? Because. I think.

Royally fucked this up last time. I think we all remember it. And he's like. No no.

And then he showed me. This is how you make sure. That never happens again. Yeah. Now. If I had made the mistake again. And not done what he told me. Well. Do you know what? I'd have got the roasting of a lifetime. And fair enough. You know. And I think. He was really. If you made the same mistake again. Because you weren't thinking. That's when he got a bollocking. Yeah. If you made a mistake. Trying to do something. That you thought was right. It didn't even register. I mean. And I'm sure inside. It's like. Fuck's sake. But actually. That you know. And he was. He was an emotional guy. I mean. Yeah. And it would. You know.

Emotion would spill out of him on occasions. But. You know. If you made a mistake. Where you genuinely thought. You were trying to do the right thing. You didn't hear about it. It wasn't like. And it wasn't even like. You know. Kind of. A piss takey comment. Six weeks later. Don't give it to Paul. He'll email it to Steve. You know. And it. You know. Which is. I think. There is a danger in there. To do. Even to do that sort of thing. And I think. This is it. I think. If you are. If you can build a team. Where everybody. Really wants it to work. And you can. If you said loads of time. You can empower them. To screw up. And know that actually. It's okay. Not great. But it's okay. Yeah. Then you've got something that. You can. Literally sell whatever you want to do. You can build whatever style business you want. If you've got all that in there. Yeah. Yeah. And it comes down. To perhaps an ending point. Of look. Don't be a dick. Yeah. You know. Particularly in your. Dealing with people. Don't be a dick. Yeah.

And there's one other thing. I'm just. I think you had a really. Really important point in there. Which I thought was quite. Powerful. In that. You know. You were saying. That person inside. Was probably like. Oh my God. I can't believe you know. This fucker. But actually. He didn't show that. And I think that's the. Then that's something really important. Because we've said like. We naturally like. You can't control your emotions. Right. People say you can. But you know. It's like. You know. Like. And I'm no psychologist. Or whatever. Really. With any. Shocking. With any letters. Or in. You know. In any way qualified to speak about this. From my own experience. You know. Like. We all get triggered. For want of a better word. By things. The way that I understand it is this. You can't control your emotions. Like if something upsets you. You're going to be upset. If something angers you. You're going to be angry. But we can control. Is what we. How we then choose. To deal with that. So you know. Like people say. Count to 10. If you're angry. And all that sort of stuff. So. Yeah. You know. Quite possibly. And this is what I think. Makes an exceptional leader. Quite possibly. You made that mistake. And your boss at the time. Was thinking. Fucking hell. How are we going to deal with this? Whatever. But in no way. Has that been shown to you. And he's dealt with it. In the right way. And then even better. He's empowered you. To be able to do that. In the future. Yeah. Yeah. That. I think is really. Really important. A lot of people. Would listen to this. And think. Oh yeah. That's all right. But I get really annoyed. I can't hide my emotions. In that manner. Well. You might not be able to now. And I'm not saying. Hide your emotions. But choose a different way. To deal with them. Anybody can do this. But it is. Like anything. A practice. It's not practice makes perfect. But each time you do it. You will get better. So someone might say. And think. He was genuinely pissed off. But you don't have to act on that. Just because you feel pissed off. You have to then. Take it out on that person. Because you know. Paul remembers this. Example. And it's a positive story. Whereas. If that had been dealt with. In a slightly different way. Could be a negative experience.

And it's the sort of thing that. Particularly sort of business with work. We thrived on doing stuff. We just got stuff done. And that was like. You know. That was one of our things. That actually. We'd have ideas. You know. He'd. Kind of think of up a business. It'd be live six weeks later. Yeah. And we'd just kind of do that. And I think. If you are. Particularly. If you're in that kind of world. If people are worried. To take action. Everything stops. Yeah. Everything slows down. The money gets further and further away. But you do that in the knowledge. That. It isn't always going to go right. Yeah. You know. And it is. It's. If you can build a team. Where that is. The place. And you can teach yourself. If it's you. Let's do it. If you can teach yourself. To. Think. Before you act. When these kind of things. You're onto some gold. Yeah. Exactly.

Which is probably. Well not probably. It is. The perfect time. To wrap up. Spectacular. Today's podcast. Paul Chapman. Pretty accordingly.

We must go up with a better ending.

We need a happy ending. To the podcast. Don't we? Everyone loves a happy ending. Man.

We nearly got through a whole podcast. Without one innuendo.

Like a first.

We've said 20.

Or whatever we've done now.

We've literally said the word. Dick. 50 times at least. And not a single one. Oh dear. There we go. Anyway. Brilliant. Well mate. I enjoyed that. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. And yeah. A happy ending indeed. Take care people. See you next time. Bye bye. For the next episode of Throb.

We'll be back next week. For another edition. Of the Throb podcast.

If you want to find out more. You can find me. At paulchapmanuk.com

And you can find me. Bertie. At bertiecord.co.uk Thanks again. See you next week.