(More) things Paul doesn't understand, Brilliant Mail and mind-numbing Christmas Ads

Welcome to Throb, The Reality of Business podcast. Real business chat from real people without the shiny veneer of gurus anywhere near it.

With your hosts Bertie Cordingly and Paul Chapman and maybe some guests along the route, we'll talk about our experiences of running a business, helping others run a business and sharing real stories based on real experience.

Hello. Hello, mate. Paul Chapman. Hello. How are you? I'm all right. I'm very well. It's Christmas.

It's Christmas. Well, it's December. It is.

Early December, but it's still, it's, yeah, Christmas. Christmas is coming.

Christmas is indeed coming. It is indeed. How are you, mate?

I'm very well. I am very well. Already had my first Christmas party. Excellent. A couple of days ago, so I was a little bit worse for wear yesterday. Surely not. But today I'm fully rested.

That's tremendous. All, yeah, all good. Wide awake. You know, unlike one of the other podcasts that we recorded.

Pish pash. Think nothing of it.

But yes, here. So.

Nice. I was thinking on the way over, actually. You are, do you know what? You are my fourth favourite Bertie.

That's, uh.

Four, okay, so.

That's a good thing, isn't it?

I suppose. Well, that means there's three other Berties. What other Berties do you know?

Well, Bertie Bassett, obviously. Right. King of, um. Well, king of all, uh. Licorice all sorts. Okay.

All, just licorice?

I think he's just a licorice all sorts thing, I think, isn't he?

Well, yeah, I know, but like, would you, would you eat a licorice all sort? As in, do you enjoy them?

Yeah, I love a licorice all sorts. I don't like the round coconut ones. I just, that just annoys me. That just, it like makes me cross. It's like trying to kind of squeeze a, I don't know, cabbage leaf in there. I'm not a fan.

I always used to get called Bertie Bassett at schools. Oh, Bertie Bassett. Yeah, I don't really hear it anymore. It's like, I don't even, I don't even fucking like licorice. Anyway, go on.

So yeah, so Bertie Bassett, number one, obviously. Bertie Wooster, James and Wooster, number two.

Showing your age, but yeah.

Yeah, well, I keep number three clear in case I meet someone. And then you're in at four.

You're such a dick.

Just out of the medals, mate. Well, that's a good thing, isn't it?

This is why nobody likes you.

Of all the Berties, fours like you, Paul. I mean, it's important to leave that spare bit because.

Just in case, you know, someone gets a dog called Bertie or something.

Yeah, or I don't know, like someone writes Bertie on a piece of paper and sticks to your shoe or something like that. Thanks. Good, anyway.

Is this how we're going to go?

I don't feel that useful today. No, let's not. What are we going to talk about, mate?

Well, today I think we should talk about, let's get seasonal.

Yes.

And let's talk about Christmas in general. Well, not just Christmas in general.

No, we were talking adverts, weren't we? I think we were. I think there's two things here. I mean, there are so many things that make me cross. I mean, we just don't. Is there? Yeah, and this will shock you.

You've not mentioned it. No, I know.

I'd like to keep it to myself.

Okay, so does Christmas make you cross in general? Not anymore. It used to. Right. Yeah. Why is it just people being happy, smiling?

All that joy. Oh, for fuck's sake. No, well, it's kind of wrapped up in a bit. You and I were talking the other day about bad marketing.

Yeah.

And it's not bad. It's lazy. It's pointless. And again, it's back to the thing that makes me most of all cross. Cross most of all. People don't think about it. Yeah. Like really. Like we talked about someone doing a 5% discount. There's just no point. Yeah. And actually, one of the things I look for is that there's just so much bad marketing, bad advertising. And it can only happen if people aren't thinking about stuff.

Yeah.

You know, and you just see this rubbish. And I think kind of particularly so at this time of year, I don't.

There's so much average marketing in general. But at Christmas, you see just loads and loads and loads of rubbish stuff. But, and this is where I kind of get myself wrapped up in nets here. Because normally you think the people that are spending the big bucks on marketing are only doing it because it works. But I don't understand Christmas adverts. Because there's two types of Christmas adverts, right? You have got like the good stuff. You think about like the John Lewis ads. And is it Aldi with Kevin the Carrot? And like there is this whole kind of genre that came out. Not that. Ebanana. Ebanana?

It's like Ebenezer's Ebanana.

But wasn't there a Kevin the Carrot?

Yeah, he was like, he was the, he was the ghost. But I liked Ebanana. Ebanana. I liked that. I almost got a tear in my eye. Almost. Almost. Yeah.

Probably something. Yeah. But you've got, these adverts are so good. And they're so good that they have made people wait for them. Yeah. You know, there is a launch. People are talking about it. And, you know, imagine if your brand, dear listener, imagine if someone was literally waiting, credit card in hand, on tenterhooks for you to put out the next bit of marketing. So there's this brilliant stuff out there. And, you know, the John Lewis ads, I can't say it revolutionized. Because you can think back to, you know, there are loads of good ads. And we should talk about kind of the ads that we remember and kind of why they're kind of

good.

And I do wonder if people do that. But things like, the other side of that is things like perfume adverts. Now, I get I'm not the target market. Or maybe I am. I don't know. You know, I do buy any perfume.

Well, you are really this time of year. Yeah. I suppose.

But the adverts are A, really bad. And B, they're all identical. And I don't, this is something I just don't understand. Because obviously, I know marketing inside and out. I mean, I don't want to use the word genius. Someone said it to me. I shrugged it off. But.

Who said it to you, Paul?

Mum still can. And actually, she was talking about my other brother. But it doesn't matter. Like the genre of Chapman and genius had come up. Anyway. Right. But what am I missing here, mate? Because you've got all these adverts, all these companies spending probably millions on these kind of ads. Now, everything I know about marketing doesn't add up here. Because entirely forgettable, totally the same, kind of boring, dull, don't really say anything. I don't get it. And again, this is, what is it that I'm missing? It's like car ads. Car ads are exactly all the same. I don't understand it. And, you know, there is enough proof in this that doing it differently will work. John Lewis did it differently. People are waiting for their advert. It's that. So, I mean, rant over for a little bit. What am I missing here?

Are you asking me? You're the marketing expert. I'm not the marketing expert. What are you asking me for?

The word you're looking for is genius.

I don't think anyone's ever used that word with you at all.

Maybe I misheard it. Maybe you go with P.

That's much more like penis. That sounds more like genius. That's me. Definitely didn't say penis. I don't know if it's lazy as such in that. So, I'm not giving people excuses, but I completely agree. I think, you know, advertising is boring. I remember a couple of years ago, you showed me a video and maybe you should find the link.

Are we talking about this? Not that video. Not that video. I was young and I needed the money.

Maybe we should find the link to this.

No, no, no, no.

Not that one.

Thanks for listening, everyone. We'll see you in January.

The video was, and it was, it was like a compilation of adverts. And they basically like, you put them all together and it all had the same.

This was, this was at the start of COVID.

Yes.

And actually there was, let's say 20 big of the biggest brands in the world. Brands that we won't say, cause that's not fair, but everybody will know.

Well, you can find them because we're going to put the link to the video. We'll put the link in the show notes.

And they had their COVID advert and it was exactly the same. The words were exactly the same. You know, the tinkly tonkly music was exactly the same. The imagery. Yeah. I remember.

I think it's like, I think it's the same thing with Christmas adverts, isn't it? I think they're trying, I think there's a theme. I think, you know, John, I mean, I remember like the bear in the hair, that was that 2013. You know, you still remember like that ad. And I suppose at the time my kids were younger and they really liked it. And I remember like, you know, going around John Lewis, like, you know, and they had like the big bear in the hair displays and things like that. So I don't know, maybe now that my kids are older, I'm less exposed to that sort of thing. Like if I said to them now, let's go and watch the Christmas advert, they'd just look at me like, you're like, well, you know, that's, like it's teenagers, right? Well, one is a teenager. So I think it's, it's a little bit different for me. Like I would not have seen those Christmas ads unless I'd have just forced myself to watch them just before recording this. And, you know, watching the Aldi one, like, yeah, it gave, gave me a little, like, tingle, not in a sexual way, you know, like I had that little Christmas, Christmas.

I don't know if that needed to say.

It's a supermarket advert, mate. I mean, I know you are.

I know, but there was a banana in there. Like, you know, like this. Have you ever got sexual with a banana?

Uh, no, for the purpose of the tape. That's a no.

Well, anyway, I'm just saying, well, you get different sorts of tingles, don't you? But yeah, some adverts, some, you know, those videos that you referred to from years ago.

You can actually hear people turning off, can't you?

Although we're in 14 countries now.

At 14, well, that's, yeah, that's very impressive. Anyway, sorry. Anyway, um, yeah, it's like certain things do give me that, like, it does make me feel a little bit of emotion. I could feel a little bit of emotion when watching the, uh, the Aldi Christmas ad. Felt nothing watching John Lewis's, you know, with the alien stuff coming down. I get it, but it's, it's basically E.T., right?

You know, we, yeah, yeah, it was literally, it's literally, that's what they said in the design meeting. E.T.

Yeah, let's just, let's just literally do E.T. with an alien. And, you know, even like lighting up and it's, it's E.T. It's basically just like, they've just ripped off E.T. Uh, you know, I mean, if you've got to at least make some effort to change it, you know, alien, I mean, if you've not seen the ad, I don't want to spoil it for you. But, you know, alien comes down, boy goes see alien, it's a boy, then the alien's a girl, possibly, I don't know. And they exchange mince pies and stuff and have a little kiss at the end and she fucks off. You know, it's basically.

You could have saved him a few quid, couldn't you?

Yeah, there you go.

But like, the thing I don't get right is that, I mean, let's kind of break down an advert here. Like, first and foremost, it's got to get seen. Yeah. Okay. It's got to be, um, it's got to keep your attention.

Yeah.

It needs to kind of give a clear point of something like, you know, this is what it is. This is going to buy. This is different. This is how it's different from everything else. And like the John Lewis stuff, it does do that. Albeit, I guess even with what they've done, it kind of, it goes in a vein now, doesn't it? So, you know, a lot of their ads are very different, but in a kind of, in a genre. And I think this is one of the problems when you come up with like new marketing, that actually it has to keep changing to kind of get it. But they've got to a point where people are so bought in that they want to know it. They want to see it. They want to see the next one. And I look at like, let's just take the perfume adverts. None of that's there. There, you know, there are, I don't know, if you watch telly, I bet there's 20 different adverts on. And I bet no one can differentiate between any of them. Oh, yeah.

I've got no idea.

Like, and I don't understand it because there must, it feels like they're either too scared to make a change because none of the other big brands are making a change. None of the other kind of perfume brands. Or that it is just lazy. They just go, oh, just do the same thing. Or, you know, I don't, I kind of blame the agencies more than the companies because it's just the same old shit year in, year out.

And I don't, and I mean, maybe we should just, you know, like, you know, from working in big companies because, you know, maybe we should just explain how does it work with an agency? Like, I've got a good idea. Basically, a big company will bring agencies, right, to help them with their advertising. So that's what you say. It's not necessarily the companies themselves. It's like they're selling the concepts and designing it.

Although there's still a marketing manager that's signing off on that. Basically just, I mean, maybe they're not signing. Maybe it is, well, just do the same as last year.

Yeah.

Because the ads, you know, the ads are just, they must be smarter than me. I mean, they have to be smarter than me.

No, I don't think, I don't, like, this is the thing. Like, I've worked with a lot of big companies and there are some absolute tools in positions that they really shouldn't be in. You know, like, and, you know, it's sometimes it's to be face fits. It's who you know. And sometimes it's, you know, we've said this before, like, in a very old episode about hiring, right? When salespeople, like, start to become sales managers.

Yeah.

And then they're not necessarily a good sales manager. As companies grow, people can end up, you know, you can get a lot of middle management and stuff. And, yeah, some, it's not necessarily those people are smart. They've just been in the right place at the right time. I'm not saying that that's everybody. But what we can't say is just because somebody works for a big company and at a senior level that they're smarter or they're smarter or better than you or I. Because that is not the case.

But it's, what, I guess it comes back to, like, what am I missing? Because, you know, you've got two adverts on TV. One is so good, people are waiting a year to see it. And it starts to make headlines in November. And I'm sure that's seeded by the business themselves. And then you've got the other side of it, which is so entirely unmemorable that it can't, well, in my head it tells me it can't boost any sales. You think, well, as soon as one person does a John Lewis style ad, surely the rest of the world then have to look at theirs and think, well, okay, how do we do a thing that creates something that people are waiting to see? I don't know. And again, and this is kind of my point, because I spend a lot of time, I like looking at the big dogs. Big dogs? Yeah. I like to look at what the big guys are doing because I know they're doing it well. So we're chatting. So I do a roundtable called War Cabinet, you know. And we were talking to someone yesterday and we created someone, their own version of Amazon Prime. Obviously, it's not. But that version of, you know, give them a, you know, get them to give you some more money, then that in turn will mean they'll push more work your way. You know, and this was, yes, this is kind of, you know, kind of a copywriter. And we may or may not have worked out a way for actually, so you'll get a lot more work and people will be already paying for it. It reminds me, there's a guy, I've forgotten his name now. It wasn't matter, a print company down in, down on the South Coast. And he had a bat phone and only 10 of his clients could have this bat phone. And you paid, I'll make up the numbers, 100 quid a month to have that phone number. And actually, you could ring that number and regardless of what's going on, he would turn your job round in 24 hours. So people were paying a massive premium to have that number.

Yeah.

And because they knew they'd get their stuff quicker, they'd use them a load more.

Yeah.

And they, you know, these are the same what we kind of kind of created yesterday. So I like to look at like the big guys think, okay, if Amazon are doing it, they're doing it for a reason. What's my version of that? No, I'm not the same business. And I know people love to get across me. Oh, I'm not Amazon. Yeah, fuck off. But if they're doing it, I want to do it. But then I come up against some of these adverts and think, well, look again, what am I missing? It's just, it's just, yeah, lazy. Well, yeah, I don't know.

There's, there's, there's a few things I think, you know, that this can come down to. I think once, you know, sometimes it is just, there's just a lack of ideas out there. I think two, the reasons that we said, you know, probably the wrong people in, in, in, in those positions. But three, I think sometimes there can be a culture problem within the business that isn't really instantly recognizable. And what can happen is that people don't feel safe to challenge ideas. So you can get lots of people in a room and someone will say something and it's like, it's like, it just becomes like, oh yeah, that's great. That's great. And someone's really thinking, oh, maybe it's not, maybe this. And they don't feel safe enough to be able to challenge that. And that's when mediocrity just creeps in, it becomes normal. But let's just face it, you know, like, you know, John Lewis, you know, that, that is, it is E.T., right? You know, no one's actually, someone might have been sat in that meeting thinking, I've got an idea. Let's kill the fucking alien at the end, you know, and really get people, maybe we'll serve the alien up as Christmas dinner. And, you know, like we'll, we'll twist it around a little bit. Yeah. Would that be a better ad? Probably not. But anyway, if, and I'm not saying there's a bad culture in John Lewis, but the, I've seen this before where people don't feel safe to challenge things.

Yeah.

A good example, and like true story as well. I was once in a meeting and it was with agencies. There were some concept designs for some stickers that were going to be plastered everywhere for a company. And the first thing that I did when I got mine and was reviewing it and everyone was looking, and it was a, it was a hand, it was a hand. And the first thing I did with my pen was draw a cock in it.

Literally, obviously. Obviously, yeah. Because it was crying, it was crying out to, to have a cock drawn in it. And they did actually change it because it was, it's one of those things that I obviously felt safe enough to be able to do that within that meeting. But it's like, if I've thought about it, like, and if I'd not drawn that cock, I could guarantee you there would be cocks up and down the country, like drawn on these, on this advertising campaign. It was, honestly, but you could not have, I mean, everyone must have thought it. Nobody dared draw the cock. But I think these are the things that you have to have in, in those meetings. You've, you've really got to be able to have that culture that you can challenge these things and you can, someone can actually say, you know, stand up and say, look, I'm not saying your shit, Paul, but that I, obviously genius, penis. I'm not saying that you're shit. However, I think we could do your idea a little bit differently. Have you tried this or can we look at that? Or to actually say, sorry, Paul, that idea is a massive pile of wank. But it's not, it's not personal, isn't it? It's not a personal thing. And a lot of businesses, I would say, do not have that culture. And I think this is where, what's the word? Mediocrity. Is that the word? Mediocrity, yeah. Yeah, that. I think that's where it creeps in. I think that's where it creeps in.

And it's interesting because maybe, maybe I am just missing here, maybe somebody somewhere can show me the piece of paper that shows me the sales ads that actually, when you use this advert, you know, this advert works better than another one.

Yeah.

But with all, with all my marketing knowledge, it just doesn't make sense. You know, a few years ago, I get it. But actually now there's so much evidence of what really does cut through, what works, what gets people there. And there's not. And it is, I do, I do wonder if that actually it's just, maybe we're being a little bit too judgmental.

Not like us.

It doesn't sound like us at all.

But, you know, like, I suppose, you know, from, from the other side of it, you know, people buy all the time, you know, email templates, like I'm talking, you know, email templates that convert, this that converts. Maybe agencies going in and saying, look, you know, I know it's dull, I know it's whatever, but this, it's ET. Everyone loves ET. Let's, let's just run it. You know, it could be something like, it could be getting the results. Maybe, you know, we don't know. We don't have ears in those, you know, workings of said meetings. Yeah.

And it's important to point out there is no originality. There's simply, there is no idea for which a version thereof hasn't been done.

Yeah.

You know, and it's the same with, you know, I haven't, you know, I haven't seen ET for a shop before. You know, so I think there is, there is, there is a newness to that concept. People aren't expecting, you know, no one would have written down, oh, this is what they're definitely going to do. Whereas if you look at the perfume ads, you can write down, there'll be perfume ads this year that will involve, I don't know, lady on a motorbike, you know, jumping out of a window, kind of, you know, man left looking longingly. You know, or people jumping around in flowers or, you know, you can, you can spot them in advance. You know exactly what it's going to do because it's never changed. Whereas, you know, you look at the John Lewis and yeah, the concept is ET.

But they did do it, didn't they? Someone did and it's just, they actually did like an ET recently. Who did? I think maybe it was a broadband company. I can't remember. I don't know. But they actually made like, and it was the same, like it was, it was like almost like ET2, but an advert. Like they had an advert. Well, yeah.

And I think there isn't any originality. And I go, this is kind of the stuff that I love our money listeners now.

Yeah.

Many multinational listeners. Ciao.

If you're watching this in Berlin.

Just because you've got to think a bit more. You've got to look around you. You've got to kind of think, look, what, what is going to get this scene? And I just, it doesn't have to be kind of wacky, crazy different, but like the only point of advertising in any way, shape or form is to garner the attention and get into the consciousness of a consumer that has a million other messages a day. And there are people that you can see kind of categorically are doing this. Yeah. The John Lewis. And there's loads, you know, think about, you know, Dollar Shave Club when that first came out. Yeah. Do you remember Poopery? I do. Yeah. Poopery again, like massively different. I'm not saying you have to go through toilet humor. It always works, kid. Yeah. I'm not saying you have to do that, but it's this, and it comes down to everything. You look at the, we get one of these local magazines through the door.

Oh, I'm razzle.

All I could have done there is just pretend I didn't know what you were talking about.

For the purposes of the tape as well, what was funny is, is Paul was actually illustrated with his hands, like magazine. I was doing magazine with the hands. Just in case I didn't know. Not razzle. Not that you can see.

And then you look at these hands, and again, it's the same, and no one's thought about it. You know, you're in a magazine. Why is no one thinking, right, I'm in a magazine here that people are going to flick through? And I'm on a, you know, I've got a quarter page, so there's four other adverts. The eye has got so much to see. Why isn't there something? You know, something that, I don't know, the best we did, and I forget what it was for now, but we did two ads. What did we do? Three ads. Something like, I don't know, quarter page one basically said, all it said was something like, go to page 22. And then the advert, before page ads, on page 22, and then on the other one, on page 25 or something, there was something on there that basically said, you've missed it, skip back two pages.

Right.

And it worked brilliantly, because the, I forget what it was, it was like, I don't know, let's just say it was bright red with white writing, whereas everything else was black and white. So it stood out, and no one's seen it before, and it's just that, and it doesn't work for everyone, you know, but this is like, you know, this is the difference between, like, if I wanted to peddle junk mail, which I do.

Yeah.

If I was going to peddle junk mail, I would put it in an envelope, because when junk mail lands through my letterbox, without reading it, I know I don't want to see it. Yeah. If that makes sense. Whereas if I put it in an envelope, I like envelopes, you have to, I have to engage with that envelope, I have to open it, I have to engage with material before I can get rid of it, because I don't know what it is. Whereas the shit that just comes to the door, scoop up straight into the recycling. Yeah. And it's just, you know, it's the same.

When you see that mail sort thing on it there, where you see that mail sort, it's like straight in the bin. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's just, it's just.

Anybody put it, and we get, I get so much rubbish through the door, and because it's how, because of how it's delivered, not even what it is, I don't engage with it, because I know I don't want to, before I see it, because you can just kind of see this, this just stuff.

Well, it's when it's just, it's just, when it's just rammed through with the, in the raw mail, isn't it? Yeah. You get all the leaflets and stuff like that. Yeah. You can opt out from that stuff. Yeah. And it's just, it's just the same stuff.

But if that came in a really nice envelope, I have to engage with it. Yeah.

It's just got to be different. I may have spoke about it on one of these podcasts before, but it's a good story, so I'm going to say it again. So I'm not apologising, because it's cool. I had the privilege of being sat with one of the original 80s madmen, and he was back in the 80s doing the mailing campaigns. That was the thing. It was your only way of doing it. And his talk was called Relative Disruption. Who was it, mate? I can't remember his name. That's the problem. Awkward. I don't know. I've tried to find it since, but no, really, really, really interesting guy. And basically it was saying, you know, at the time you've got 20, 25 pieces of mail coming through a door a day, how do you stand out and be different? And it's like, you know, you could literally print on, and basically do what you've done. Sorry. Yeah, I suppose yours falls under this category, you know, the thing of, you know, go to page 22 and then go back a little bit. You know, like what a lot of people do when you see this so much now is like clickbaity headlines. And it's like, you'll read a headline, and then you'll go into it, and it's got nothing to do with it. It's the same sort of thing. So you could send an envelope, you know, you could send out your letter in an envelope that had like tits written on it, for instance. And then, of course, you're going to open that. But then when you open it, if it's just like, you know, the new...

Yeah.

Oh, we'll just let you know our new vets has opened up. It's like, it's not written. And you think, like, fucking hell, I've opened that. I thought there was going to be tits in it. And it's just about a vet. I haven't even got a pet. You know, like you're pissed off. And it's like, it's, that's the wrong way of doing it. And the best example that he gave was, he sent out, one of their best performing campaigns, they sent out a letter in an open envelope. So then... In an open what? In an open envelope. Envelope. Envelope. Envelope. Envelope. What did I say? Envelope. Envelope.

I let it go three times. I couldn't let it go again.

And this is because, this is because, coming up, like, my mum just says words wrong. And I thought, like, like, there's so many words that I've just grown up thinking, like, what is chimney? Chimney? Chimley? Chimley. Chimley. Chimley. I thought it was a chimley.

Anyway.

I wonder if anyone's still listening. I wouldn't have thought so. Chimley.

Santa's coming down the chimley. Anyway.

Is that a metaphor? Yeah.

Anyway, this is a good story. So, sent it in an opened... What's the word? Envelope. Envelope. Yeah. An open letter. That's good, that. Yeah, it is. Yeah. And, but... So, this is the best bit. So, of course, what are you going to open first, if that has come through?

Yeah.

You open the open ones, you ignore the other ones, and there's a bit of emotion there, isn't it? And when you opened it, then the letter said, if you felt that strongly about somebody reading your mail, how would you feel about somebody burgling your house? Burger alarms. Relative disruption. So, you know, it's that, you know, straight away, it's like it's all relative. So, you know, that was a highly successful campaign for them. It is.

You know, the only thing you have to... The only question you have to ask when you're doing any kind of marketing is, what is the thing that I can do that is most likely to work?

Yeah.

And normally, that work is, get it seen. Mm-hmm. So, you can't just scoop it up from the letterbox and chuck it in the bin, because that isn't seen. So, what can I do? And it's the same with any bit of African. What is the thing that I can do that is most likely to work? Which is why, you know, I've gone about kind of using the phone, not email, or using direct mail, not whatever it is. But, you know...

It's only because you can't work a computer. Say again. It's only because you can't work a computer. Do you know what? I'm getting worse.

I was on Zwift with some of the guys, and I just couldn't make it work. On what? Zwift. It's like a cycle app where you can... My trainer links to that, and you can... I mean, Zwift confuses me anyway. I find it's just... There's just too much going on. But I was literally doing that old man thing, looking up to the screen and down, and I was like...

That's exactly how I am now, trying to order online at a bar. You know, you just go, like, order at the table. It's just... I've just regressed to, like... Yeah. I just can't do it. It just restricts me. People take the piss.

We took Jack out. You know, William was at the party. We took Jack out, and we went to Nando's. Other places are available. Actually, let's pretend it wasn't Nando's, because that's really unfair. It's not their fault. Anyway, so the guy came and said, you know, please, can you order via the app? And we're like, yeah. I'm like... And Amy and I are getting cross. And Amy's pretty good at this. I'm like, this is ridiculous. I just want to... And we're trying to find a glass of wine. We couldn't... And eventually, I was like, mate, what's... You showed me what I've got to do. I was like, actually, it's probably easier if you order at the bar. I'm like, you're fucking good at it. I'm sort of kidding. Anyway. So, yeah. What is the thing that you can do that is most likely to, and then work out what you need first?

Yeah.

Is it you need someone to see it? Because they don't know you exist. Right. That's one thing. Is it to read it? So, you know, because if they already know it, if they already know you, then they need to read what you're saying. You know, is it that they need to watch it? Is it that, you know, like the most important part of an email? The subject line. Yeah. Okay. So, what is the most... What is the thing that I could do that is most likely to... And then you look around and you think about it. It's like, you know, great direct mail. Like ADT? Are they the alarm people? Mm-hmm. There was a campaign for ages where they got those boxes, like really big boxes, that have got the elastic bands inside. So, you can push them flat. Right. They push them flat. They'd slide them under your door. So, you'd unlock your door to find a package that was so much bigger than your letterbox. And you're like, how the fuck did that get in? And that was it. You think, you know, how would you... Relative disruption. Yeah. And it is. And there's so many examples of this now. And this is why there's just no excuse for it. Because it isn't particularly more expensive. Like, okay, a flyer costs a lot less than the box.

Yeah.

But the only point that you're spending any money at all is that you want something to change. Don't look at the cheapest option. Look at the option that is most likely to work. You know, and I think this is... With all of this stuff, is that people almost do it on autopilot, I think. People don't think about it. Which is crazy because there's so little thought to be done. You know, what is your version of, what do you call it, relative disruption? Yeah. Yeah. How do you do that? What's that in your world? And any business can do this. Yeah.

I suppose it's having, yeah, whether it's an email, a catchy... Or something that's going to make you read the email. Or to open that email. But actually it's still in some way. And it can be very loosely related to it. You know, but in some way. Because actually then you're reading through. I suppose you know what we try and do with our titles for these podcasts. Like, you know, we'll pick out little bits of them to try and get people to listen. Which is clearly working because people are. Yeah. And now we're nuts.

Didn't you get recognised in London? I did. I did. Which is nuts. That's absolutely mad.

So, yeah, it's a... You know, this stuff does work. And it is.

You do pull out... You know, we look at our... And I don't know if we get it right yet. You know, we're only 24 in. And I know, you know, we look at stuff and we look at... And again, you guys need to do this as well. Look at what's worked. But don't... You know, because it... You know, I can think of a great example here. I sat with a business that did kind of pharmaceutical machinery. And, you know, we went... And I was trying to create a good email for them. And we kind of let this... And I was trying to clever stuff and this, that, and the other. And eventually the guy just said, Look, Paul, I'm just going to send this out. And I forget. It was something like the word, you know, stock sheet. And that email made about 25 grand or something like that. And actually, you can overthink it. But you've got to test what works. Yeah. But you have to think about it. Because, like, I like people who send emails that are newsletters with newsletter in. No one ever wants to read a newsletter. Like, the best... There are two good emails... Thousands. Two good email titles that I think always work. One is bad news. Yeah. And just write bad news. And that can be bad news. The offer's about to end. Mm-hmm. Like, I think it's probably less effective now than when we were using it. Because I think a lot more people. And then Sorry works really well. And I'm sure we've talked about this before. I sent an email out to a hundred thousand people. And I got everyone's name wrong. Yeah. Or rather, I got one name wrong. Which turns out, on a spreadsheet, kind of fucks it all. Yeah. And then we sent the Sorry email. And the Sorry email was stratospheric open rate. And the conversion rate from it was just insane. Absolutely insane. And people bought stuff. And it's just lessons. It's just, you know, like, all of this stuff. What can you do? How do I do it? You know, this person is going to get 20 emails a day. Is there anything I can do to get mine seen? You know, and it's like, you know, it's like, um... Like, kind of cold calling. You know, I'm a huge fan of the telephone. Absolutely love it because it works.

And it's old school.

And it is old school.

However, most people don't like to make calls. I think they just need to be kind of dim like me. And I'll just talk to people. But crucially, people don't like to receive calls. You know, when was the last time you got a cold call? Like, hello, African prince.

So actually, what can I do? I know when I get on the phone with people, they want to give me some money, which is lovely. How do I get that phone? Well, okay, so I do do some activity beforehand. And this is a thing. He's back into this. Like, what is the thing that I can do that is most likely to get the reaction I need? And I just don't think... I don't know. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think people think like this, which is bad because they're still spending money. They're still hoping for the advertising to work. It feels like there's no thought in there.

Yeah, I think there's... I reckon there is a correlation to the more money and the bigger, you know, the campaign, probably the less risk people are willing to save, which I suppose makes sense. But for an email, like if you're... Like, I was emailing daily. And, you know, I was really experimental with subject lines and things like that, you know, and just started to have a little bit of fun with it. Like now, if I was like... I haven't sent an email to my list for a good few months. Now I'd be like... I'd be thinking about it. In fact, I've gone to write and start again. And it's hard because it's like I'm out of... A, I'm out of that routine and that rhythm of doing it. But B, I'm overthinking. Now it seems like a big deal. In my head, people are waiting. So it has to... And nobody is, really. But, you know, that's how it's... You can build these things up too much. So I think, yeah, I think it's more about... I mean, obviously you can't do this with like big Christmas campaigns. But, yeah, just doing stuff and just testing and actually being a little bit brave. And if you're in a company with, you know, where there's multiple people making decisions, then actually make sure you have a culture where people can challenge those ideas and actually can say if something's wrong and that it's okay to make mistakes. And if you don't have that culture and you do want to change it, you know, like it's not... It's not easy to change, but you can make very, very simple changes right now. You know, to actually... A really powerful thing to do is if you stand in front of your team or, you know, the whole company and say, let me tell you about a time that I fucked up. This is a mistake that I made. This is what I'd have done differently. And just making those small, simple changes can actually then start to actually create a little bit because then you're, what's the... Agitating everything a little bit. And then you're no longer playing safe. I think what we know in marketing is that there's a really good picture. We'll put the picture in the show notes so you can see this. And it's the... There's a baby and it's got a dummy in the middle and it's got on love and hate. Have you seen it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's like, you know, you're either aiming to like get people to love you or to hate you and if not, you're just the dummy. Yeah. Essentially, if you just play safe in the middle. I think far too many people play safe in the middle. And like, what's the fucking worst that can happen? Let's just, let's just do it. Do you remember? I've just remembered like... Oh, go on. No, no, no. I was thinking, but like, ad for... Like, maybe it's a nostalgia thing. Like, I'm sure ads used to be better. Like, I remember...

Like Monster Munch used to be bigger. Yeah.

Freddo's used to be cheaper. Fact.

But I mean, you know, I remember...

Like, I can still remember... I could sing adverts from like my childhood. Like, I can recall every word. Go on then. Like, well, no, but you know, like... Do you remember like the Scotch... Like the Scotch... The Scotch tape? As in videotapes. The skeleton. Yes.

Yes, I do.

I'm going to tell you how it's going to be.

Yeah.

With Scotch's lifetime guarantee.

Play what you want both night and day.

Then re-record, not fade away. Re-record, not fade away. Re-record, not fade away. And that, you know, it's all... I wish we were on video. It's just...

I mean, what adverts... What adverts do you think people will remember? Because I was talking to someone the other day...

Dad's Doorstep Challenge? Yes.

But as in what adverts now? Because, you know, I was talking... Do you remember the Yellow Pages... Well, the Yellow Pages adverts? You know, the... Oh, I'll write about that saddle. And the kid with the race bike. Yeah. J.R. Hartley. French Polishers? Yes, French Polishers.

Just possibly could save my life. Yes. Yeah.

But I don't... I mean... I don't know, mate. I worry that we're just getting into that... Music was better than our ad. Which it was, by the way.

But it just doesn't... It doesn't seem to be anything particularly memorable now. Or much less that is memorable. And I think you're right. I think people... There is a fear now of doing the wrong thing. You know, because of the world as it is. Because of social media as it is. And all sorts of other... Some legitimate... Some kind of illegitimate reasons. People are just too scared to go... Well, let's go and do that. You know, when a perfume company... I'm just picking on them. You know, when a perfume company does a Dollar Shave Club... Yeah. ...or does a Poo-Pourri... There is going to be a seismic shift. Yeah. And it will work. Every industry has proved it will work. Mm-hmm.

But it's going to take a really brave person... Deep in the kind of... You know, the bowels of that company... To make that happen. Yeah. And... Maybe it will never happen. Because kind of cultures grow... As businesses move on. And actually... Cultures are passed down the line. And actually you can see that... You know, in 10 years time... The person that learned from the old marketing director... At ABC Perfume... Is... That basically turned into another version of that person. That says, no, no. This is how we do adverts. We've always done adverts like this. This is how perfume adverts are. And it takes someone to go... Well, actually... Yeah, but perfume adverts don't have to be that way.

They don't have to be just someone on a boat. Yeah. Yeah. Aftershave adverts was the same. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The ways. Yeah. It isn't... It's like, you know, kind of...

I suppose until Dollar Shave Club... You know, to sell razor blades... It was... It was kind of Roger Federer.

Yeah.

It was a lot of stubble, oddly. A lot of stroking of faces. Yeah. Possibly some sort of green plant. Almost certainly a jet plane. You know, on occasion a motorbike. And that's how you sold it. And everybody knew that. And then suddenly Dollar Shave Club went, ooh, but what if we didn't? And I know they're lauded. I know da-da-da-da-da-da.

And that can happen. But I guess... I guess perhaps the point of this is that they don't need it to happen. Maybe they just make enough money. Maybe it's a token gesture. Maybe they just need to remind men that perfume is available at Christmas. Maybe that's it. But you just feel that if there was an advert that really stuck in the mind, everything you and I know about marketing tells us that would make a difference. And there would be a correlation between that, the sales at that point, and the cognizance in the people's brains for the coming years, that that's a thing. Yes, you should look at what other people are doing. But actually, go and look wider. What are the things that are working? Because there are no secrets anymore. You know, like, everything is out in the public eye. You can find everything. You know, no one will... You know, no one gets through a Christmas without knowing that John Lewis have got an ad. Yeah. Or, you know, kind of Kevin the Carrot. Or, you know, I mean, like, Kevin the Carrot... Apparently you can buy, like, Kevin the Carrot packs now, which sell out in milliseconds. Really? Yeah. Which is crazy, because it's a weird ad for something that happens, like, one month of the year. But it's just, you know, because it's so different, because it's kind of... It's hit all the markers, it's there. You know, I don't believe people are, like, racing to buy the... I don't know, perfume brand...

T-shirt. I just don't... I don't know. Perhaps I just need to stop being cross, mate.

But it's a very important thing, because, you know, everyone at some point needs to advertise, whether it's paid ads or whatever, whether, you know, whether you're a one-man, one-woman band, whatever, or, you know, a big company. Everyone advertises, you know, not necessarily, you know, deliberately. We've said before, you know, like the touch points in your business and things like that. And it's all really important things to think about. And I think sometimes, like, you know, we've used the word think a lot, so I'm going to expand on that. I think it's, you know, thinking's good, but making sure that everybody's got, you know, a way to express challenge and build on those thoughts. There's a real big thing in collaborate, like how many times have you been... You know what I mean? You'll have an idea, and in your head, it's the best idea in the world, right? Yeah. You know, because it's short. I know, obviously. Because you're a genius. Penis.

But sometimes when you say the idea out loud, and then someone else gets the idea, and then it changes into something else, and it gets built on a little bit, and there might be a little bit, and then someone else gets the idea, and that you generally have that, like, you know, when you're drunk with mates, everyone's quiet. No one holds back on that. You know, it's like, why don't we go for drinks? Then before you know it, like, it's four in the morning, and the euro starts somewhere. You know, you've built on that.

You've built on that. Do you speak Polish? Damn it. Not again. Yeah. It's...

And that's what happens. So, yeah, it isn't necessarily just thinking. I think it's talking and testing and collaborating and making sure that, you know, if you are the CEO or the CMO in a business, that actually, like, you've hired these people around you to make sure that you are, you know, challenged and develop these ideas more. So if that culture's wrong, then, you know, it's thinking just isn't enough. Just isn't enough. Because people are just going to go home, like, oh, well, it's pointless. You know, like, even saying anything out loud because no one listens. Yeah. And it is.

I mean, I was at a company a long, long, long, long, long time ago. And I remember, I was so excited because we had an off-site planning day. And I had what I still believe was just a really brilliant idea. It fit with everything. It was a really kind of simple concept that would kind of be the overarching thing. And I spent hours on a presentation because I said to the boss, look, I've got an idea. And she's like, great, just do it. And they literally just didn't give me the time of day. And I'm not saying, actually, no, it was really good. And I was only a very kind of small time player. I was like a marketing exec at the time. And I'd come up with this thing. And actually, you are right. From that day forward, I kind of cared a little bit less. Not that I think, I mean, what they, do you know what really made, it was really interesting. What they actually did, instead of taking my idea, which is fine, they went back to a really old idea, rehashed it, and did the same thing again. So they re-brought out. And you think, what's the point? And it's like, oh, let's work. And it just, and I do, I really remember that. I hadn't thought about it until I do really remember that feeling of kind of, well, what's the point? And actually, your ideas just get, oh, man, I don't know. Maybe it was all bollocks. I don't know. But it's really interesting. And I think, you know, I hadn't really thought about that in terms of what we're talking about.

But there'll be a lot. I think people listening now, they've been in that situation. I think everyone can recall a story similar, you know, to those. And so, you know, some people have got, you know, hopefully there's a lot of people that don't have that. Actually, no, I'm really listening to all my ideas and taking on. I believe that sometimes the best ideas can come from the, when I work with companies, we're generating ideas. We're generating them from everyone, from the people that are on to the, in the phones, that are knocking on the doors,

right through to the CEO level. Because actually,

the further up the chain you go, the more distanced you are from this stuff anyway. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, when you're like, I remember like, you know,

building companies from scratch and you've had to do all the legwork and things, just talking to customers and actually finding out that if someone's having the same problem on a website, for instance, it's like, if you're hearing the same thing, it's like, oh, actually, maybe there's something wrong there. And actually that then, that idea should get fed up and changed. But a lot of places don't do that. And I think it's the same concepts with what we're talking about now. And if, yeah, it can, it can just get diluted and lost. And no, no, playing safe is just boring, isn't it?

And it doesn't work.

Look how far we've come as well. You know, like, you never used to swear on these podcasts. You've said fuck twice today. Gosh.

Sorry, everybody.

Yeah. Yeah.

I think it's really interesting. I think, you know, because even if you are,

even if you're on your own with this, you've got to work out, am I serious about the thing I'm doing? Because if you are serious about the thing you are doing, then there simply is no other option than, well, let's get as many ideas in the room as we can. Let's just see if there's a different way of doing it. Let's test a different ad. Let's do this thing. And I think, I guess that the danger here is actually the people that we're talking about, it doesn't matter to them because perfume company ABC, they make billions. Yeah. And actually, they'll still do it right this Christmas because that's what people do. And actually, so they don't need to do it. The danger is, is other people, like kind of, you know, the much lower down the chain businesses going, oh, I'll just, I'll just, I'll do the same more crap. But I'm sure they're not looking at it going, oh, well, I was doing it, so we'll do it. But if you are not thinking about it, if the stuff that you're doing is just vanilla and bland and that, it will not work. Not for a long time, not for sustainable time because other people will come and they will do it better. And I think you're dead right. I think, you know, if you can create a culture in a business where you get people's minds on it and it doesn't matter if this person is the guy that cleans the toilets or the lady that directs the marketing, it doesn't matter. Get more people's input in it. In a kind of a structure in that way, but get this input because even down to common sense, the basis level, the common sense, you are more likely to get something better if there's more than one. And if you're on your own with that, well, that's where, well, you come to people like you and me or you go and sit with your mates or you go and speak to anyone and say, look, I'll buy you a beer. Let me go and talk about the plumbing business. I want to do new stuff with it. And you see it everywhere. You see it. I wish I could remember them. It was one of those scenes going around Facebook with brilliantly named, like plumbing businesses and that sort of thing. I think people really think about this stuff and it's, all that is, is like, how do I make someone remember my name? What is the best thing I can do with the name of my business that's going to do the thing I want them to do, which is remember me when they need plumbing? And they go, oh, let's, I can't, I wish I could think about it. But anyway, anyway, but yeah, just think, again, we always kind of end up at this point, I think, just think, get help, but don't, there is no money in the middle. There just isn't. And you'll spend loads. You won't get anywhere. You'll think marketing doesn't work. And go and look at different examples. There was a brilliant PPC ad ages ago that was essentially like a online treasure hunt. So I don't remember. And I think it was for an education course. So you'd Google, I don't know, higher education. And the top ad came up and it was like a really interesting kind of clever question. So it's like, ah, education for you, but can you pass the test? You know, go and search for cat in the hat or whatever it was. And then they basically paid for these ads to move people around the internet to get them to the world. And it's such a thing.

It's like what those old books used to get. Like the little... Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But they did it with PPC. Right.

And it was just brilliant. I think there are so many examples of stuff that has been proven to work. Go and spend some time looking at that. Get some help. Go and think about it because it is dead easy just to ship a load of money on the same old, same old. And it'll just, well, it'll eventually die, but it'll just bumble along. It will never do it, which in my mind is unforgivable when there is enough proof and easily copyable examples of stuff that categorically work, do all those things that you need an ad to do. Yeah. It's just... Maybe that's rant over. I feel a little bit... I feel a little bit better now getting that off. A little bit lighter. Yeah, I do feel a little bit lighter. Good. Well, great. Let's wrap it up. Let's go there. Paul,

thanks again for popping in. Popping in. Oh, thanks for wearing trousers this time.

Much appreciated.

You're very welcome. Brilliant. Thanks, everybody.

We will catch you next time. Yes. Enjoy. Thanks again. Bye-bye.

We'll be back next week for another edition of the Throb Podcast.

If you want to find out more, you can find me at paulchapmanuk.com

and you can find me, Bertie, at bertiecord.co.uk Thanks again. See you next week.