Let It Go: You Can't Do It All Yourself

Welcome to Throb, The Reality of Business podcast. Real business chat from real people without the shiny veneer of gurus anywhere near it.

With your hosts Bertie Cordingly and Paul Chapman and maybe some guests along the route, we'll talk about our experiences of running business, helping others run a business and sharing real stories based on real experience. Morning, mate.

Good morning, Paul Chapman. How are you?

How's your stray tuft of hair?

Yeah, I'm just trying to fix it on the video.

Yeah, nice touch.

It's great because I've got the video on me and I can see myself on my watch.

That's just weird, isn't it?

It is, isn't it? It's a bit spy-like. Yeah. So it does make me think, you could leave the phone. Yeah. Leave the phone in a room.

I can remember. No, no, no, no. For legal reasons, no. Go no further. Do you remember Knight Rider? I do. Do you know, that was like the pinnacle of cool. You can imagine. Like, they think you've had to the time, will there ever be a time where we can like talk into our watches?

So, the true story. It's completely unplanned. Have I ever told you about when I...

P.S. Every story that starts with the words, true story, is not a true story. Well, this way. Is that where someone says, I'll be honest with you, or with all due respect.

I'm not going to lie, but...

It's like me to see the old men in the pub, innit. I'm not racist, but you know exactly. You know exactly. That a huge racist tirade just goes, for fuck's sake. Anyway, what was I talking about? Knight Rider. True story. Right. Listen, listen. So, yeah, listen up, listeners, listener. This was mid-90s. Yes. I first started to drive, and as you know, I'm a little bit of a tech geek.

Yes.

And I saw somebody have a self-starting car. Right. So, you could buy an alarm. So, I had a Ford Escort. Cost me two grand. Nice. And it was quite nice for a Ford Escort. So, I had this auto start put on it, and it was 600 quid. So, it was an alarm, and from the alarm fog, you could start the car. Now, I had to sign a disclaimer, because it was a manual, that said, we only would normally fit these two automatics. So, you have to make sure that it's in gear. You know what's coming here. I had to get in neutral before you start the car. So, this was like, no, this is mid-90s. So, now, you'd think, it'd still impress you, wouldn't it, if you were starting a car remotely. So, what I used to do. The key is a lot of hassle. Or a button. I loved it. So, I used to DJ, you know, and I used to park. So, this is official. I used to park. These were the pub doors. I would park directly at the pub doors. So, my favourite trick, I would just go out, and I would press the button. It was a little bit of a day, two seconds. And then I would go to my watch, start engine. Obviously, like, thinking I was... Got it. Mic on mic. So, press the button, start engine. So, visually, the car would start. Everyone loved it. Yes. Brilliant.

I don't think I know where this might be going.

So, I parked it into the pub with the doorman. Right. Did the whole thing, start engine. And it did. But the fucking fuck quick that I am, I'd left it in gear. So, the car then drove forward, pinning me, pinning me to the front of the pub. So, the doorman there were then trying to push the car back, open the car doors, but it's still locked. Doorman from the other pub come running over. I still have, I still have a dent in my leg from where I was pinned. Sorry to see this. Well, it's very minor now, but it's somewhere here.

There are minor legs. Okay. It's a skit loan, Nick.

Yeah, and that's what happened. So, yeah, whenever I think of kits, I'm reminded of. So, eventually, they did manage to push the car back and the car stalled. So, yeah, I was once run over by my own car. Nice. Yeah, anyway. Anyway, Paul. Good. So, after that brief, mildly comical introduction, what are we talking about today?

We are going to talk about people. Lovely. I think, to start on, there is a real myth around self-reliance. Yeah. I think perhaps less so now. I think, you know, we are hopefully coming out the other side of hustle, hustle, you can do it, work every hour, et cetera, et cetera.

I think it's still there.

I think, yeah. But anyway. Yeah, probably. Maybe I'm switching off from it. That's interesting. It raises definite myth, particularly smaller businesses, startups, absolutely, that you have to do it all. And also this, no one does it as well as me.

Yes.

And I think that is a useful starting point for us. Yeah. I agree.

I think, yeah, it's that old adage, isn't it? If you want something done right, do it yourself. And, yeah, I think people still do, especially in business, still do believe it, but it's not necessarily true. And there's another phrase, isn't there? If you want to go fast, go. If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. Something. There we go. Oh, chestnut. Maybe we should Google these before we start talking.

Let's get that on a T-shirt.

Yeah.

Look, there are interesting things at play here because the whole point of this podcast is that we can talk our version of what we think is right, what we think is true. And I do, there is, quite often there is a case of no, your team probably, we can't do it as well as you.

And that's fine because it's your baby. You've had this thing. And, you know, think if you're a startup, you employ people, you know, and I think there is an element where actually, look, fine, that's how it is.

You need as a business owner to be comfortable with that because if, you know, to achieve what you want to achieve, you can't do it alone. Not forever. It's probably a Branson quote. Actually, like, yeah, go and find people that are better than you at whatever it is. And I think, you know, this thing that actually you need to get comfortable with the fact that actually I do everything and my business doesn't move and I eventually just crumble into a dark room, sob gently and hide. Or I go, okay, look, I'm going to do this. I'm going to get some help with it. And actually, it's okay that it's not how I would have done it because it's how they would have done it. But because they're doing it, it allows me to do the stuff that I'm really good at. Yeah.

It's a barrier to delegation. It just happens in every single vertical of business. Whether it's someone that's dealing with clients, they think they've built the relationship with me, so they're not going to accept a relationship with, you know, what am I? They need to deal with me. It's almost here. You build this picture that you are the center of your own business, which of course you are, but you have to be able to delegate. You have to be able to pass those things on. And do you know what? Mistakes are going to be made when you first start doing that. That's it. It isn't going to be done as well as you to begin with is the short answer. Your customers will be, you know, forgiving of those, especially if you're offering a better service. So the way that I used to deal with this personally is so when I had the online takeaway service, I'd signed up all the clients initially. Like we had no salespeople to start with. I dealt with all of their calls, like all times of like, they just have my mobile number. They would just ring me all the time for bizarre things.

And then eventually, you know, that isn't scalable and it isn't sustainable. So what I used to say to them was, look, when they started calling me for things, you say, okay, I can't deal with that now. However, I'm going to give you the number of this person. They've got access to all the information they're going to be able to do with your query right now. If you want me to deal with it, that's fine, but it's not going to be till the weekend or something else. So actually providing them with a better service or a quicker service, but they just weren't dealing with me. Then you have that instant access. So that was one way that I sort of tackled that. But it was a really difficult thing to let go of because I just thought, well, as soon as I'm, you feel that you're fobbing off customers and maybe you're not going to give them, yeah, it's almost like you're doing them an injustice by not dealing with it yourself. Yeah.

Yeah, I think so. And I think, you know, I don't, I don't think too many people care. There are some people that actually they like to deal with the owner. It gives them, it gives them a good feeling. Yeah. And actually, look, that's the case. And there are decisions that you can make on that as to whether you want to be part of that or whether you think actually not doing this enables my business to grow. So there is that. But I do think a lot of people, they don't care. They do, they want the thing that you do in the way that you do it.

Yeah.

And as long as you are instilling in your team the culture of that, I don't think people, I don't, I don't, you know, I mean, some people, some people know, but I don't genuinely think it's, it's, I mean, I'm doing my business, actually people don't mind as much. It's not, it's a bigger thing in my mind than it is in theirs.

Yeah.

It's all part of instilling a culture, like how you run a business, get people on board with that. And actually your name being attached to the email or whatever actually doesn't matter. No.

And a lot of the time it doesn't, but you are the center of your own universe, aren't you? In your own head. Like the world does, you know, it's a very ecocentric way. And most people do think like that to some degree. I suppose it's only natural because, you know, you are only perceiving the world to your eyes the whole time. So you are the center of everything. You're the main, you're the main character in the game, right?

Yeah.

I can see how people do have a reluctance to delegate because you would think that, well, they don't think like me. And yeah, as you say though, Paul, they don't, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to think better or worse. It's just different. And I think the key to this part is to almost sort of skip to the solution. I think what you've got to get really comfortable with is giving people the autonomy to be able to make those decisions themselves.

Yeah.

So in the example that I was giving, if I'm telling someone to speak to somebody else and the first question they ask, they're like, oh, I don't know. I need to speak to Bertie about that. Let me get back to you. You know, that's no good. Suddenly I provided them with a worse service, but they're like, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I'll sort that out for you. We can do that. Why don't we do this? If those people that are working for you are empowered to be able to make those decisions, then it makes a big difference. It's like we've just had like a change of management in the pub downstairs. And suddenly all things that were working really well in that pub, they're trying to grow a business, right? Things that were working well, they've now taken away like bar tabs for regulars. Rather than just, you know, texting them and booking a table, then, okay, you need to come in and pay a deposit and all stuff. There's nothing particularly wrong with that if you're starting a new business. But if you've been going there for two years and the system works and actually it's, you know, people are now moving away from there in droves.

Yeah.

So you have a lot of, you know, you have to make sure that the people that you're empowering can do the same things that you did. Yeah. Otherwise the service becomes worse. Yeah. I think that's interesting.

I think it's, it's another one of the things that, you know, it's perfectionism versus excellent. Excellent. Perfection versus excellence. Because, well, firstly, perfectionism is a myth. It's a thing that simply doesn't exist. And even though business owners, I think, don't express it as we're trying to be perfect, a lot of the activities, a lot of their stuff, a lot of their communications, you know, certainly internally comes out, you know, you're not doing it right. Now, you know, as soon as, if you're trying to create perfectionism, you are open to then, to basically you're opening criticism. You're opening for intolerance. You're, oh, you haven't done it right. You know, it doesn't, it doesn't boost the culture. If you are aiming to be excellent at something, actually it allows the room for mistakes. It allows rooms for learning.

You just got me thinking about process. It links into this quite well, because if you're an established business, you will probably have tried and tested processes that are in, that have become your business as usual at the time. So, you know, that makes it very easy to, you know, if those processes are documented, trainable and scalable, then it's very easy for new people to come in because they're just essentially following a process. But I think where delegation falls down is if you are a, you know, if you're the owner and you are constantly bending the rules a little bit or just, you know, going outside of that, that's a process in itself. And if the people that are working, you're working with, or you've given that autonomy to, or haven't given the autonomy to, don't have the ability to be able to do that, then they are going to be providing a worse service. And they're never going to be as good as you because you're playing by different rules. So you've got to make sure that the rules are the same. So, you know, example of the public manager that is saying to all the staff, you know, you need to take deposits and stuff like that. Yeah, I'm walking in there and he's like, oh, no, it's all right. It's just you. It's fine. It's fine. He's going to be then looking at the numbers and saying, well, actually, I've booked 10 tables this week. You've booked one. Yeah. What's going off? You're playing by a different set of rules.

Yeah.

So you've got to make sure that that playing field is level and question, are the processes fit for purpose still? If you've been running them for five years, do they need to change? If you're measuring people by a different set of standards, so if you're thinking, well, they can't do the job as well as me, just have a look. Do they have the same power, for want of a better word, to be able to do the job as well as you? Like if you're a racing driver in a Ferrari and you're racing someone and you give them a Fiat 500, you know, there's a big difference there. So, you know, it's not necessarily the driver of the car. It's the environment that they're in and the abilities that they have to do their job. So, yeah, if you're struggling to delegate or you're thinking of people not doing the job as well as me, is that a reason why? And you've really got to question that yourself.

And actually, do you need them to do the job like you? Do you need that skill set? You know, the amount of businesses I will go into and they will go, we need to find a marketing manager or not. Well, hang on. What are the actual skills? What's the gap? What's the thing that you need doing that isn't being done?

Yeah.

And what's the best version of that? What do you actually need? And, you know, like so many times you'll go in and they don't need a marketing manager. They need a really good doer. Yeah. Someone to help get it done. Yeah. And I think actually these things, you look at it, they don't need to be doing it as well as you because that's not the skill the business needs. Yeah.

It's like a strength and weakness. What is it called? SWOT analysis, isn't it? Yeah. You know, it's recognizing what your strengths are and your weaknesses are. Like in that example, you know, I'm very much the same as you. You know, I can come up with great ideas, help prioritize them. When it comes down to execution, well, I'm already been thinking of the next set of ideas that I want to do. So they have all of this stuff that's not getting done. So having someone that they're, okay, right, let's take those three things this week, test them out. Let's look at the results next week. Perfect for me because I'm already on the week and the week after thinking of something else. So recognizing that though, the fact that I don't go and do that level of detail, that's not necessarily weakness, is taking what my strengths are. And then actually you want to find someone else that maybe doesn't enjoy that creative side.

Yeah.

And actually just as like doing, you know, if you've ever done those analysis where it's plots you on a color wheel and you see where you are, et cetera. You know, when you're working in that type of environment, you want someone that's almost your exact opposite. Someone that's just going to take that. And I've been really lucky in business before that I've worked alongside people that are the exact opposite of me.

Yeah.

And that's one of the reasons that I have been successful. It's so important to have that balance. Yeah. Because it's not that, yeah, I can just say those things and they'll go ahead and do them and it's great. And then I don't have to think about that. And then next time it's like, well, has it worked? Has it not? Whatever. So, you know, that works really, really well. But, you know, leave me on my own and I'm just showering in my own ideas and never get anything done. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, yeah, there is a definite argument here. Actually, you don't want people like you or you might not want to. Because if you really believe your process is right, handing it to someone who, in the wrong way of saying it, is not as good as you, whatever that, that's a good because they're just going to do the process. I have been in businesses where like the lead, not like the lead unit were all probably too similar, which meant, which is good and bad, really. Good in the fact that actually, yeah, geez, we can make money. But the capacity for idea to activity, the money coming in was superb in that part of it. But we didn't, because of that, the culture very different. We didn't attract and keep the people that could keep the cogs turning. So actually, sales superb. Everyone loves it. And actually, not the customer service, not even the delivery, but like the back end stuff that would then kind of, you know, service the new people that had come in. It was just not as good as it could be. And that caused real frustration. And, you know, and it was, it's a tricky one because it's a bit like donks in their owners. And, you know, really inspirational guy leading it, really astute guy leading it. As a unit, we were all similarly minded and for a long time, it was a really exciting place to work. But actually, you can see some of the things that made it really tricky and actually probably started to affect the leadership team's ability to do stuff was the kind of the grinding down of we haven't got the back end sorted. And that kind of had a knock on effect. So actually, you can see by not doing that, it will have an effect on your ability to do the stuff that you think you're good at. And actually kind of fostering a culture where you understand and, you know, you actively seek the value of the opposite of you. My right phrase is, is actually, it's such an important thing because you need those people. Employees need employers because not everyone should be an employer. Not everyone should be an employer.

Yeah. So it reminds me of like in lockdown, you know, thinking back to those crazy days. Schooling. Yeah. Jesus.

Can't get enough of the home schooling.

Yeah. Just thinking about when it just seemed to be like overnight and, you know, maybe it's just the stuff that I watched. But on Instagram, it was like that everyone was saying, you know, start your own business, leave your job, you know, get a side hustle and all that other fucking bullshit. And, you know, and that's great. A lot of people did. But I think the pressure that on the majority of people to, you know, you're not doing anything. Why don't you go and start a business? Why don't you eat? It's well, actually, now I just want to put my feet up and watch Netflix. Thanks very much. There's absolutely no judgment. I think if that's the way you are and if that's, you know, what makes you happy, then that's absolutely fine. And, you know, they're probably the people that actually just like to turn up to a job and just do it and then go home and spend their time.

Personally, that's not me.

No, exactly. There is nothing wrong with it. And I hate it when someone tries to put their, you know, beliefs of the world on someone else. It's the same with anything, isn't it? You know, with religion or whatever. Like if someone's ramming it down your throat.

Yeah. And it's not even their beliefs on the world that winds me up. It's their condescension of someone else's choice.

Exactly.

Because there is this thing where being a business owner is more noble. It's just cooler. Oh, yeah. Whichever way you choose to earn your money, it's a means to an end. And, you know, I know people that are truly miserable in their job. I would love the idea of it. But actually, I know people that are truly miserable in their business.

Yeah.

Interestingly, the people that are miserable in their job will talk about it. The people that are miserable in their businesses often don't.

Yeah.

Because, again, there is that stigma around this kind of hustle. Do great. Yeah. Look at my own boss. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Bullshit.

How are you doing? I'm so busy. I'm so busy. Oh, brilliant. Yeah, busy. Can't talk. Yeah. Schedule immediately.

Oh, yeah, it's going great. It's fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, you pick under the surface and it's just not there. And I feel sad for those guys, too, because, yeah, it's like everything. You know, I can probably, if I work hard enough, I can probably blame social media for this, too. But this constant ability to be seen to do everything's good, to be seen to be it's all right, to see, you know. And it's, you know, it's weird, isn't it? And it's way off track, but everybody knows.

It's not like us to go way off track for the subject.

No, no, that doesn't feel like our something at all. But it's something I've forgotten. So you say words now. I don't have a point.

I thought there was a point there. This is your rant about social media, which you've had many times on and off. I know you don't. I think it's great. And I just think it's a method of amplifying stuff. I mean, you know, the algorithms, it shows the stuff that either you like or you don't like.

Yeah.

So this always makes me laugh with people when you see them on LinkedIn and, you know, go on there and you'll see like a nice post, whatever. And then you'll see some fucking Marty penis. Just go on there and like, this is the worst person I've ever made. This is unfollowed. Literally, because you've spent time interacting with that person, you have literally just told the algorithm. Oh, yeah. I want to see more of that. So not that you're going to see more posts from that person, but you're going to see more posts of that. So, you know, if you're going on there and like hating, I don't know, let's just think of something, hating cyclists, which, you know. Who would do that? All right. It's a good crowd of people to hate on, I suppose. Then, you know, if I'm going on to cyclists.

You'll get shown more cyclists. Yeah, exactly.

Look at you, you fucking wankers and you're stupid. Anyway, I'm not going to go on about cyclists. Because you are one and I'm not. Yeah.

It's just a weird thing.

But yeah, that's what happens. Then you get shown more cyclists and then you're getting more irate. And then before you know it, you're like, fuck this, I'm coming off social media. All I see is people on bikes.

Eventually, people just buy bikes. Yeah. Put on Lycra.

No, no, no, no, they don't. No, they don't. Yeah, they do. I don't think so.

But, yeah, let's not rant on social further. I think, you know, there is a thing here for business owners to listen to this. And just, as we always kind of say, and just think, you know, what are you, in inverted commas, imposing on your staff that you think is right that might not be?

Yeah.

Which people, who's in your team, what are they really good at? How could you help them do more of the stuff they're good at? What extra resource do you need extra resource? And it's like all of this stuff. I think it's a constant thing to look at it. You should be constantly looking at it. And particularly so because your team is the single most important thing in your business.

Yeah.

Well, I actually didn't mean to say the word important. Yes, it is. It's the single most expensive thing in your business. And actually, it's the thing that is most likely to sink in a bit of commas to your business.

Yeah.

Because either they're not doing the right thing because they're not sure what to do. All this thing we've kind of said before. And actually, you know, this kind of, this myth of self-reliance and the myth of, probably the myth of self-importance. Can we sort of say that? And I think that's, you know, I met someone, two or three years ago, a really interesting conversation. And they talked about they didn't trust their staff to do the right thing.

Yeah, that's, it's weird, isn't it? I've heard that a lot. Yeah.

I think, well, you've employed them. Yeah. Why not? What's going on? What? But they hadn't done anything about it. It was, oh, well, you know, I don't really trust them to do it. So I just kind of do it myself. I'm like, but you're paying them. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know.

It's, I think it's, I think you see, yeah, you've got to find a way. And it's, it varies in your business, whatever you're doing, but you have to find a way to build trust within your team. You've got to trust them. Yeah. And they've got to trust you. And that comes with effective communication, giving people the freedom to be able to make mistakes. If there is a problem, then dealing with the problem, as in focusing on that problem rather than making it personal about the person. You know, we've all seen that manager, haven't we, that just, you know, just berates and shouts and just goes on at people.

Yeah.

Cause them a dick and everything else. And there's the odd occasion, you know, it's like that a way of dealing with people that is effective, but generally focusing on what the problem is and how we can then stop that problem from happening again is a far more effective way to deal with that. So I think, you know, you've got to have those trust communication things in place. It all helps you being able to delegate.

Yeah.

And without delegation, then you're never going to be able to hire that first member of staff. And that first member of staff will then lead into hire number two, hire number three, hire number four. And that's the only way your business is going to grow. Yeah.

So does that mean then that actually everything comes back to having a culture in a business? Yeah. So yeah. Creating something that when you bring new people in, there is a set of rails for them. This is how we do stuff. When you then talk about the stuff that you do, that actually everyone feels like they're part of it. They get it. They understand it. They, they know, not just how they know they can make mistakes. You are reminded of delivering happiness, which we've talked about before. And, you know, the people that were effectively disciplined, that's the wrong word. But if they asked too many questions of their kind of superpowers or whatever, they would get some training to go, no, no. We think you're good. Do what you think is right. Do what you, and actually, and any sort of, you know, foster this culture where people would, people wanted to be there. People believed in what the company was trying to achieve. They did. They took the decisions. They did the right things, what they thought the right things. If it went wrong, well, that's fine. Yeah. But actually, it's back into that perfection versus excellent thing. We're trying to do the right thing. Yeah. It's another point. Interesting on perfection. Perfection, we know it doesn't exist. But it doesn't exist particularly in today's business world because every challenge is just slightly different. Yeah.

I think every business, whether you say, like, you don't just magic a culture. You always have a culture. Like, in the same way, your business always has a brand, right? You know, and you can, just because you say there's a culture, like, you have to live, breathe.

You probably have a culture without knowing you have a culture. Exactly.

So, you know, is that the culture in the business that you want? Or is there a different one? And what changes could you make? I think you're right. It's communication, trust, the culture in the business, all of those things, then they're the things that help shape. So I suppose, yeah, in summary, I suppose, you know, the importance of collaboration, delegation, trust, communication, culture, clapping along to each one of us.

That's our culture. We clap each other, people. But ourselves.

Is... Well done, us.

Yeah, is really important.

Yeah.

So those things, I suppose, can't be underestimated.

Yeah.

I think those things are important in your business. And if you have them in place, then you are much better placed to be able to have a, yeah, create a growing, scalable business where you can then empower people to be able to do the things that you don't necessarily want to do all the time. Helps your business scale, helps it grow. And, you know, you know the rest of it. Yeah. That's how you just make great stuff happen. It's good, though.

And that's probably a good place to draw the line. Lovely. Right. Well done, us.

Another round of applause. Okay. Thank you very much, Paul. See you later. My pleasure. See you later. Bye.

We'll be back next week for another edition of the Throb podcast.

If you want to find out more, you can find me at paulchapmanuk.com.

And you can find me, Bertie, at bertiecord.co.uk. Thanks again. See you next week.