Dried meat and one night stands

Welcome to Throb, The Reality of Business podcast. Real business chat from real people without the shiny veneer of gurus anywhere near it.

With your host Bertie Cordingly and Paul Chapman and maybe some guests along the route, we'll talk about our experiences of running business, helping others run a business and sharing real stories based on real experience.

Hello again, Paul Chapman.

I don't know why we do this. I don't know why we persist with this nonsense, Bertie.

But that's how you start it. Like we greet each other. Hello, Paul. Hello, Paul.

This is like the whole wave at the end of a Zoom thing.

I don't feel it is. Like I think the listeners, which are now increasing from just our mums, like there's more people listening, surprisingly. Why anyone would tune into this drivel? I do not know. However, the listeners need instructions. So they've just had the little welcome to Throb and all that stuff. And then it's like we say them to each other. Have you got a better idea? What should we do? Sign language. Then the listeners, and there are lots of them, can't see. So I don't feel what the problem is.

Speaking of said listeners, I imagine they switched off now. Anyway. So the cars listen to this. Anyway, hello, mate. How are you?

I'm very well. I'm very well, Paul. Thank you very much. What are we going to talk about today then, if you want to get straight into it?

Well, go on then. Yeah, well, do you know what? I'm going to have a little bit of a hijack today because I need to get something off my chest.

Okay.

I feel like I'm having kind of multiple affairs. Excuse me. Multiple kind of one night stands. And that's not me.

We are recording. We are recording. This is coming out. Well, look.

Okay, this is going to be a bit weird. Loyalty is massive for me. It's just, I don't know, it's one of those things that's kind of inbred in me. And like friends are like, you know, so, so important. Like kind of family is so, so important. I think it's one of the things that attracts me to cycling, that kind of working for your mates thing. You know, all that kind of stuff. And normally it's kind of the same to the point of almost personal kind of problems with kind of brands and people that I buy from and that sort of thing. And actually there's one kind of particular thing and it kind of came to pass because I wanted to come and buy some more this weekend. And I didn't know where to go. So when lockdown started, in fact, let me go back a bit. I used to work in South Africa, an old department store. Did you? I know any of that. Yeah, I lived in South Africa for a year and I kind of spent a lot of time playing rugby and all that kind of stuff. And I got into all of the phrases built on. For those that don't know, basically just dried beef. Don't spit your coffee. It's just, grow up, man. It's just kind of seasoned dried beef. And I kind of forgot about this. Really good with a beer. Really, really good with a beer. And anyway, kind of started lockdown. For some reason, I thought, oh, right, I'll get some. And obviously at that point, yeah, you kind of order it online. And since then, I've gone through kind of four or five different suppliers just because each one is like really kind of pissed me off in sort of some way. And it just, why I think this is relevant for us and who knows if it is or not. It all kind of comes under that customer loyalty because customer loyalty is no longer a thing.

Okay.

So my preference here, and this is how I am. And again, this is a good note to anybody wanting to sell to me that I will just buy it and I will review it and I will love it. So the first lot came, absolutely epic. I thought, loved it, great, straight on, left them a brilliant Google review. Yeah, just the whole works. And then went to order some more and I ordered kind of two or three different types then. Right. Because we had a lot of time on our hands.

We're still talking about Bill Tom.

We are still talking about Bill Tom. A lot of time on our hands. And like each flavour tasted exactly the same. I ordered different consistencies and they all came the same. I thought, oh, that's unusual. I thought, well, okay, look, maybe busy and I sent him an email, never heard anything back. You know, this is, and when I, when I first got there, I reviewed and I sent him an email. So I reviewed, I loved it. So, you know, there's not a connection. There's something there. I heard nothing back. So I thought, well, I'll try it again. And the third, the third lot, and again, this is an idiot. So I'm still spending money, even though I'm not happy with the product. That's kind of, you know, third lot, the same thing. Tasted like dust. Just anyway.

So I changed supplier.

So much I want to say. But anyway, carry on. Please continue.

I promise I'll make this story short. So I've changed supplier and it's kind of the same thing. And actually, you know, it was there and it just wasn't that good. So I've tried someone else. And what really kind of gets me at this point is that the most expensive thing to do in business is to buy a customer through the marketing, through everything else. You know, even if it's just having your website found, getting your SEO right, that kind of thing. And actually, I'm kind of three, four suppliers in now. And all of them are rubbish. And actually, one was really good. But then he shut his business down because he wanted to do some stuff. And I've not heard back from him. And, you know, even that kind of winds me up. You know, you had someone that was paying you money on a really regular basis. You then shut the business while you were upgrading kind of your tech and that sort of stuff. But I've heard nothing from it. And I think it's this thing that really, really winds me up is the fact that it's really hard to get customers. It should be really easy. Actually, it is really easy to keep them. You've just got to do some what? What is wrong with you? Go, right, go. You go. No, please. No, no, no, no, no. I'll come back to my point.

This is just the most middle class rant I've ever heard. I've heard.

What am I going to talk about today?

I've been through five or six Bill Tong supplies.

I can't get...

Do I actually understand what the problem is? I'm just like... You can buy this stuff at, like, Bill Tong.

Right.

So, like, you can get it in Tesco. It's not very good, though. What? It's not very good. Well, I don't know, because, like, I'm not... I mean, I'm not... Are you a Bill Tong connoisseur? I can't remember.

If I were to put something in my mouth, I would like it. But you did.

You said you liked it. And then it was... I'm confused to what the problem is. So you said you liked it. Yeah. And then you got some more, and you wanted some different flavours of Bill Tong.

Yeah.

But you thought they still tasted like the original Bill Tong that you actually liked.

Basically, I got three different packs of the same thing. Okay? And that's not an ordering, folks. They're all labelled differently. Yeah. I suppose... Now that you've actually kind of scratched the surface of this, I can see it's a slightly unusual point.

Perhaps we should talk about these things in advance. But where I'm kind of getting to here is that none of these businesses that I was regularly giving money to have done anything to get me to pay more money to them. Have they put... You know, I'm not saying I was... I mean, I'm not buying thousands of pounds of kind of this. You know, but, you know, when regular customers stop paying from you, I don't feel you're taking this seriously, Bertie.

Don't feel any months taking this seriously.

I thought it was a joke.

What are we really talking about Bill Tong? Fine. No. Hang on. I can't say that. Stop it. These businesses... These businesses have done nothing to keep my business, which I find really irritating. As a business for myself, I find it really, really irritating.

Yeah.

And I think, again, yes, there may well have been better examples here. And I look forward to hearing yours.

But it just drives me mad that actually people just aren't doing it. People are paying and working hard to get a customer. And there is nothing... All these people have got everything they need to know about me for me to buy again. And they just don't care. Yeah. And I think, I don't know, maybe those businesses are far too big. Maybe they don't need my whatever money I'm spending with them. But I just, you know, from my point of view, as a fairly kind of simple consumer, I like loyalty. I like to love someone. I like to stick around with someone. And I just can't do it because I'm not getting good stuff when I'm writing to their customer services. And again, I'm aware this sounds very, very daily mail now. But when I'm writing to their customer service, I'm not hearing anything back. I think it's a little bit like we spoke about with the bike shop and the big hairy or not bouncer.

Yeah.

You are now having to wipe tears away from your face. It's that anything that makes it stop someone buying from you in whatever format is really dangerous. And this was my example into that.

But I can...

Right, you say stuff now.

No, I was... Yeah. I mean, my eyes are dry now. I mean, what I never took... I mean, I didn't know people took Biltong this seriously, for one thing. I mean, so this is news to me. So my Biltong experience is now and again, like, I'll be walking down the aisles of Tesco. Generally, like, I've seen it there and think, oh, I think I like that. And I'll have some. And then I'll buy it and it'll... I don't know. Do I put it in the fridge? I don't think I should. But I think it does sit in the fridge for a little bit. Probably shouldn't. Doesn't need to be in the fridge, does it?

I wouldn't put it in the fridge, no.

And then I'll eat it months later and think, oh, that was all right. And then I might buy some more. Like, it's not a considered purchase for me. It's more an impulse buy. So I suppose, yeah, we're very, very different. But, you know, like, I'm accepting you lived in South Africa and obviously it's a big thing over there. But I suppose to your point, you know, to keep this at a very business level, I don't think there's ever any excuse to not respond to customers. So if you have been contacting them about your inadequacies of their built-on, then...

Don't say it like that. I mean, it's going to sound like an ear.

You know, I feel they should have at least responded or explained what the differences would have been. Because I suppose when you were at that, you're like, I probably couldn't tell the difference between one built-on and another, right? But clearly you can. So whereas I can tell the difference maybe between different gins or different other... There you go. ...rosé wine is my thing at the moment. So I can now tell the difference between different Provence rosé. Whereas that's not something that I would have been able to do before. So yes, I feel that I would be able to comment on that. So yeah, you are more authoritarian in the built-on department than I am. So yes, I agree with you that you should be listened to. I just found it a stereotypical way that we could...

I'm aware actually now, as I say, have you repeated that back to some of that? I do wish we had started elsewhere, but we're here now, so we'll kind of go on to it. But it's not even the customer service thing. I think that's a whole separate chat. We should have that. What kind of gets me with these sort of things is why is nobody trying to get me to buy more? And whether that is in that, you know, there's two great things that you can do here. There is that, hey, we've got a regular customer here. That is someone that's showing every sign of giving me money. How do I get more money? Or why is this guy that ordered every week for two months not ordering anymore? Or... And I think these are the processes that are missing in these businesses because they've done all the hard work. Yeah. And I think that's insane. And it's, you know, I can think, you know, there's loads of different examples. You know, as you... Well, just to kind of sound more Middle England, I wear a lot of tweed. Yeah. I have a lot of tweed jackets.

I believe we've mentioned that before.

We probably have. And, you know, and it's, I buy my Petri jacket. Easy for you to say. I buy the jacket, or I did, from one very specific shop. And, again, they've got everything they need to know about me to make that money from me. Because, you know, I'm not being... These jackets are relatively expensive items. I have probably six or seven from them. Which, again, make... I don't feel I'm coming off well today.

But they have never tried to kind of... They've never tried to get any more money out of me. You know, they know everything about me they need to know. You know, there's no way that you wear, I don't know, a really nice tweed jacket and don't like nice shoes or nice shirts. That just doesn't add up. Okay. But at no point have these people ever gotten in touch with me to say, you know, hey, Paul, I hope you're well. We've got these lovely shoes. Yeah. Because they know it's me. And I think, you know, this is the... In a long-winded way, this is the stuff that really kind of gets on my... I get to my wiki is the fact that no... So few businesses do this. Yeah. And kind of even fewer do it really well. And I think my big kind of thing is that people, I think, business owners still believe customer loyalty is a thing. And I don't think it is a thing. I think people want to. I think people like to do it. And I think people will even say that they do it. But even that is the strongest of relationships. If someone comes in with a better offer, better service, better price, better whatever it is, those people will go. And I think anyone that is running their business saying, oh, now my customers love me, they're in real trouble. Yeah. Yeah, I think so.

I think there's lots of different ways to look at this, isn't there? I think it's a really good subject. Because I think loyalty, like, you know, when people talk about, you know, let's drive customer loyalty. They're just trying to get customers to buy from them again, right? It's not that they necessarily want them loyal. It's just a marketing tactic to get people back, you know, loyalty schemes. We'll give you a card. And then when you get 10 stamps, we'll give you whatever off there. You know, it's just to drive people back to the business. So, yeah, I think loyalty is often confused with, and often is, like, you know, upselling, downselling, cross-selling, as you were saying. You know, if you're buying tweed jackets, why wouldn't you buy shoes? Yeah. From, you know, so, yeah, I think it's a, I think the subject itself is really interesting. And a lot of companies don't do it well. And I think the crying shame with a lot of this stuff is it's actually really easy in that, like, I'm a big believer in, like, you know, marketing automation stuff. In the right, used in the right way.

Automation of customers that have already bought from you is actually really easy. Like, you've already said that, like, you were buying Biltong. And I'm trying to say it without a smile on my face. I'm not taking a piss anymore. Very serious subject matter. Paul's Biltong. So, you know, Paul, let's just paraphrase his customers for those that have skipped through the first 10 minutes.

So what we were saying earlier is Paul was a regular purchaser of Biltong and he stopped buying Biltong. And then he has heard nothing from the company anymore. That is a crying shame because they could have done something to win back your business. So, you know, with stuff like that, they have the data points already. They actually know as soon as you've ordered two or three times your average Biltong consumption rate.

Like, you know, that is unhealthy.

That could be a thing. If you haven't ordered Biltong again, if you're ordering every two months, if they're not dropping you an email for two months, not necessarily offering you a discount, but just reminding you that that's something that you need to do, then, you know, it's a very, very easy win. I get my contact lenses online. So I only wear one contact lens. Anyway, very minor prescription. Why are you looking at me like that? You only wear one? Well, yeah, because... So I have my eyes lasered. You're cutting costs.

Does each eye get a turn?

I have a very minor, minor prescription. So I can still legally drive without my contact lens in. However, I just like to just sharpen it up a little bit. So I had my eyes lasered about 10 years ago. And since then, they've just got a little bit worse. But the reason that I wear one is because now I'm over 40.

My reading eyesight now is affected. So if I strengthen one eye, the weaker eye sort of balance it out. So with one contact lens, I can see far away and I can still read the screen. If I put two in, I can't read anymore. So that's why. Anyway, there you go. There's a top tip for anyone. Just self-manage your... Just take one contact lens out. You don't need bifocals sorted. Anyway, getting back to it. So I order my contact lenses online because it's much cheaper. I wear daily disposables. Sometimes I wear them. Sometimes I won't. And they send me reminders. Like... But the reminders are dumb in there. So you can't buy one contact lens. Strangely enough, you have to buy them in a pair. That is odd. Yeah. So I get the reminders. So they do remind me to buy the contact lenses. But when they remind me, it's the wrong time. So they're doing something right. They're using automation. But for me, I get them a month early because when I'm buying a month's worth of lenses, obviously, they're lasting two months. So the data is there for them to do something a little bit different. But they don't use it. However, I'm an edge case. I'm not beating these people up for it. There's not many people that do just wear one contact lens. So in that scenario, what I like about it is they've gone and done it anyway. They've probably realized that there's edge cases out there. But actually, that probably affects, I don't know, 1%, 2% of their customers. For the majority of people, if they're ordering contact lenses and they've ordered 30 contact lenses, they're going to need a reminder a month later if they've not ordered. So that's the sort of stuff that I feel that everybody should be doing. And that isn't creepy or intrusive marketing. It's like, oh, of course, I've given you all that information. I think where it does get a little bit creepy is where people start filling in the gaps for themselves, almost, and what you should be doing. And maybe offering, you know, there's a whole conspiracy, which even though I know it's not true, the whole conspiracy about your phones listening to you and seeing ads for random things, et cetera. You know, there's some very, very clever reasons why all that sort of stuff happens. But still, you know, when you've been talking about something or someone and then that person pops up, it's like, oh, why do you want them as a friend on Facebook? It's like, what the fuck? Yeah. Like, you know, where did that, where did that, you know, it's spooky, isn't it? And that stuff is creepy. So there's very logical reasons why those things happen, but it's still perceived as creepy. And that's very, very off-putting, I feel.

So, yeah, I think, you know, it just needs, like anything, it just needs to be thought about. You know, the simple maths here is once you have a customer, it is cheaper and more profitable to get them to buy again.

Exactly.

So actually, you know, making a process that gets your customers to buy again is as legitimate as you're running some first-time Facebook ads, as legitimate as you're going networking. It's a thing, it's a thing, but people just aren't doing it. And I think, you know, and it does differ. Like, someone like your contact lens people, probably quite a big business. You know, that probably, that automation thing is probably not all they can do, but in, like, a realistic world, that's all they can do. You know, it'd be really difficult for them to call you or to kind of, you know, kind of send direct mail or whatever it is about your one eye. You know, because that's...

Can we just, for the purposes of the tape, I do have two eyes.

It's like a cyclops.

It's just like a pirate that's kind of concerned with their image, that they just don't want to wear the patch.

But I think, you know, the most businesses, I think any business can do this. You know, even, you know, even, I mean, what's like a... So you take something like, I don't know, a state agency, which in theory is like a one-hit thing. You kind of get that. But actually, still keeping in touch. Because, okay, no, you, it will be bigger chunks between you get each bit of business from that customer. But there will be something that you can do that kind of helps with your referral. So even if, you know, I don't know, even if you're writing to someone every year on the anniversary saying, you know, congratulations on your house-iversary. It's probably not a good thing. You know, we've done a bit of research. We think this is the value of your home. And that's a really good thing because they might be interested in the selling. If they know that the value has gone up, it might be that. But you're just kind of keeping in touch with it. And I think, you know, this is the thing. It is. It's super easy. It's super cheap. It won't always be perfect. But, you know, I would guess probably a bulk of the people that are listening to us, of the three listeners. It's going up. We've hit massive numbers this last time, haven't we?

We're assuming you're double digits. Not after this episode. We've completely fucked it up.

Come on, lucky nine. You know, I guess the bulk of these are probably not multinational people. So actually, they've probably got a closer connection or the ability to have a closer connection with their clients. And they just need to use it. They just need to see it. You know, if one of these built-on companies sent me, because the brilliant thing about this is that, yes, they've got my email, but they've got my address. They could have that, you know, they could send me a taster. And it would, you know, because I know they do them, you know, and they're probably kind of two, three quid. But, you know, I would be picking a load of lost customers and sending them, you know, send 100 lost customers a little taster and just see what it costs. It will cost, I don't know, three quid. But if that gets one more order or two more orders or, you know, and I think it's, I think too many people are just either ignoring it or just thinking they've got the loyalty or probably were still not having any look at the fact that they're losing customers.

Yeah. If this is going somewhere else, then the way that I look at it is we've just not done our job well enough.

Yeah.

And there is some feedback in there that we should then be adapting. That doesn't mean that everybody that leaves us has something valid to say because not all customer feedback is valid. And, you know, there's a difference between feedback and criticism, et cetera. So, you know, possibly the Biltong boys or wherever you ordered from, you know, looked at that and was like, oh, this whiny little bitch is moaning about his Biltong again. Like, we'll just ignore that.

You know, maybe, you know, maybe they perceive that. I doubt it very much. I think they've probably just not known how to handle that. Yeah. Yeah. That feedback and then turn it around into something else, because actually that's a really good opportunity for them to actually be sending you something else. Oh, you know, I'm really sorry that you found they all tasted the same. Have you tried this one? You know, like there's that. It's a chance for an interaction there that has been sadly missed. I think that's it, because if they're missing it with you, they'll be missing with other people. Yeah.

And I wonder if people just don't see it as a business thing. You know, they don't see it as kind of business critical. You know, they're not seeing the value in their existing customer or not, because they know it's there. They know they give them money, but I wonder if they're just not seeing any value in it. So they're not, because you wouldn't, you know, you wouldn't have a website, or perhaps you wouldn't have a website up and then never kind of look at the stats on it or never, you know, look at the, you wouldn't, you know, be sending out a load of letters or whatever it is. And I just wonder if it, I wonder if it sort of fits into that kind of that bracket of just not thought about. I don't know. Yeah.

I think, I suppose it all depends on the level of their business and what they're doing. Like if you've got new customers coming through the door, it's, I mean, take like Christmas is coming up, right? So, you know, at a time like Christmas, people are generally far too busy to think about, like when I've, you know, I've run and spoke about laws of schemes and things in the past. This time of year, nobody wants to talk about them. It's, you know, we're far too busy to talk about loyalty. Come January, when it's fucking dead. And then it's like, oh, yeah, that loyalty scheme, it's like, no, you've missed it. So the time to talk to those customers or to capture all that information was two or three months ago. And now you could remarket them with something else. But now you don't have the data. So, you know, I'm talking about, you know, retail stores, for example, where people have walked in and you don't have the opportunity to capture the data.

So, yeah, I think that's where people can miss the point. I think you generally, you don't worry about it when the customers are coming in, but that's exactly the time you should be worrying about it. Yeah.

And I think, I mean, that's what's happened over the last two years because everyone has gone online. The beauty of online, there is all that data. You can kind of harvest it, you know, where you can't harvest someone walking into your store as easy. And I think the interesting thing is, I don't think it's ever too late. I don't, I think, you know, I don't want to talk Bill to anyone more. Oh, please do.

Everyone's really enjoying it.

But any one of those people could email me, send me a letter and just kind of say, hey, we've not heard from you. I hope we've not done anything wrong. This is what we've got going on. And it's never too late to start these relationships if it's done in the right way.

Yeah.

You know, and I think, again, it has to be done in the right. Because if it just becomes smash and grab, it's like, yeah, I mean, you know, I'm on so many mailing lists that I just kind of ignore them now. And actually, you need to do, need to do something different than that. But, you know, all the normal rules apply. So, you know, it's a good email subject line. There's a good conversation. It's a human conversation. There's a good offer or whatever it is. You can always kind of get people back on. But I suppose, you know, it is this thing for me that is, you know, there isn't any loyalty anymore. Well, actually, I've had a thought. I'm going to come back to that. I don't think there's much loyalty anymore. I think the majority of businesses, it's not a thing. People think it's a thing. You know, I feel this is a little bit like kind of restaurants that kind of go, well, our food's good. Our service is good. People will always come back. And they're just missing the point because there are too many people in there. But part of that for a second. Talk to me about Apple because anything new Apple, you tend to kind of have and get out. Is that any loyalty to the brand? Or is it just that you like Apple products?

I think, yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is when we first started talking about loyalty. It's like, am I loyal to Apple? And, you know, like it's, yeah, the Apple announcement was last week and I was straight. I mean, I bought a lot of Apple products recently, but I haven't bought any for a while. We'll say about probably a year.

But you'd never buy on a Samsung watch. You'd never buy a... Absolutely not. No.

But I suppose for a few reasons. One, like, you know, with the whole Apple and Android thing. Like, I've always... Saying that, I haven't always had Apple. So I'll tell you my Apple journey. So my first Apple purchase was the original iPhone. And at the time, this was going back to fill my belly days.

And like, it was, there was just like still like two or three of us in the business. Going back to like 2007, I think when it came out, 2008. And to have email on your phone, you know, it was BlackBerry, which I just didn't like. I just didn't like the style of it. And I had a Windows mobile thing with a stylus. Yes, I remember those. Yeah, that used to use. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like horrific. But it did the job. So then when the iPhone came out, I was like, wow, you know, this is really going to change how I can then actually do business. So it really did solve a problem for me. And it looked nice. So that was my first purchase. And that sort of got me in. I think then I, after sort of realizing how, I mean, looking back at the original iPhone, like it didn't do very much in comparison to what they do today. Like, yeah, the camera is rubbish. You couldn't even copy and paste. But, you know, to have everything on a touchscreen device, you know, was pretty remarkable at the time. And it was really nice to use. So after then, yeah, moving on to a Mac and everything just working and not being clunky and Windows-like, like it just really was. So I think the experience was really good. And I didn't realize how good it was. So ever since then, you know, as new products have come out, like I like them. I do get interested. I do get excited by them. I don't buy everything that comes out that's Apple. Yeah, really. Like, you know, I mean, I've just upgraded my watch. So this is the Watch 7 now. So I got this a couple of weeks ago. Lovely. It is very, very nice. And, yeah, I bought the first one, missed out the second, got the third. And I was disappointed with the third because it felt exactly like the first. Like, there's the whole, you know, people joke. And then when they upgrade the phone, it's just exactly the same phone.

Yeah.

And I felt that this is the first time it feels different. The screen's bigger. Everything just works a lot better. So it feels that this is the watch that they wanted to build. Is that seven? How many have you had? I've had three. So this is the third.

So what would Apple have to do to piss you off? Because they are quite good at pissing people off. Because, you know, when they change, I mean, it's small things. You know, when they change the cables and the charging or that kind of unit and that sort of stuff. I don't know.

I mean, those sort of things don't bother me because generally I agree with the reasons that they're doing them. I mean, yeah, everybody complained about that cable, like the lightning cable. But everyone bought it, didn't they? Which was 10 years ago, right, when it changed. Was it? Yeah. But I was at my modern's last week and they still had an old device which used the old cable. And when you see it now, like that old massive connector that was designed for iPods, it's like it made like you couldn't imagine using that. It's like plugging in a fucking Scott lead. Like it doesn't. Imagine plugging one of those into a phone today.

My laptop still has a Scott lead. It's ridiculous.

So, you know, it's like, you know, HDMI, things have to progress and there's always going to be people that, you know, complain about progress and want things held about. But when you actually then look back, it's like, oh, that was the right decision.

So, yes. But now, like I'm too far into the ecosystem to even think about changing. So we were just having a conversation earlier about, you know, you buying a new laptop. Like when I got my new watch, it's just I held my phone over. It scans the QR code, not the QR code, the little like a little thing. And then it was everything from my old watch was just on there. I didn't have to think about it, do anything. My watch is just there exactly how it was before. It just looks a lot nicer. So, yeah, I suppose I'm tied in. So it would be a lot of effort for me to move to something else. So the product, I'm not saying I would never move from Apple. Like it's like Apple, you know, there's the whole rumors about Apple cars. Would I buy an Apple car? Not necessarily. The car would have to be really fucking special.

Yeah.

You know, for me to for me to want to buy that. I wouldn't buy it just because it's Apple.

Yeah, it's just really interesting because I hadn't thought about it before. We think, well, actually, how much is that? Is there any brand loyalty or is it product loyalty? Or is it the fact that they have done something that has made it so integral to people's lives that actually coming out is harder? And actually kind of and then therefore, what if any other lessons for our listeners and the fact that how do you.

If if we start the premise here by going, look, it's so, so important to keep the customers you've already got because it's cheaper and it's more profitable. Mm hmm. There's a load to learn from Apple in the fact that do people really love the brand in the same way that people kind of feel for John Lewis or whatever it is? I think they do.

I think they do. And I think, yeah, I think there are a lot of people that will just buy everything because it's Apple, you know, and I'm probably up there. Like when I took things into be repaired before. I mean, this is where Apple really went for me. So I took in an old laptop that was four or five years old.

And I love the fact you say that's old. Mine's about 12.

Well, no, I'm not saying that is old, but, you know, clearly out of warranty. It didn't have Apple care in there. The screen was broke, something else, you know, and it was it was physical damage.

Right.

You know, so but and they changed it for free. So I had all of the you know, I think the bill came to like four or six hundred.

Like it was a lot. Yeah.

And they gave me for nothing. You know, it was it's that type of service, really, that I've never had anywhere else.

Yeah.

So, you know, I've paid for repairs at Apple. You know, I've had a lot of things and things have broke in the past. But generally, like their customer service is exemplary. And that's that's something. But equally, I don't then buy all their products. So, for example, there's the HomePod, which I've got nowhere near. Like I've got Sonos and I'm not loyal to Sonos. It's just I'm too far into their ecosystem to then switch to another product. We probably wouldn't do the job as well as Sonos. And what's the other thing? Like, you know, they've got the really expensive headphones. I've got nowhere near them. So, you know, it's not that I have to have everything just because it's got an Apple label on it. But that would be the first place that I would look. If I was going to get a new laptop, I would look at Apple first.

I think what you said is quite interesting. In fact, you know, what is happening in that service issue you're talking about there is that Apple are entirely understanding and kind of proactive about understanding the long term value of a customer.

Yeah.

So actually, you know, they know that, you know, whether or not they know anything about kind of your account, as it were, which I'm sure they probably don't, that this is someone that buys a lot. I don't know how that's kind of data is registered. But they're looking at they must know that actually once someone becomes Apple, they tend to stay Apple. And as such, you know, them dropping 200 quid on a new screen or whatever it is, it's just a nothingness of them because they understand the value of it. And I think, you know, the big lessons for all this kind of stuff is that there is there needs to be a proactivity about getting more money from your customers. And as part of that, there is that. Well, look, what can we do to stop them going elsewhere? You know, what is the estate agent's version? What is the plumbers? What is the accountant's version of that free screen? What can they do? How do you make this so much easier to stay with you than not? You know, it's like, you know, I'm again, back to my dried meat.

Back to built on.

Yeah, one company I ordered from and it took two weeks to come. And I'm like, that's not a thing. An online purchase, that's not a thing for dried beef. It's just not. It's just not. And it's all these little things. And again, that was probably one of my favourite companies.

Oh, God, I'm such a loser.

Yeah, that's one of my favourite companies. But that was a huge thing. And I actually think, I don't want these kind of things. All these little things. What's going on? Why does it take two? Why does it all taste the same? Why does it take two weeks? And all these kind of things. That's someone not thinking at all about customer loyalty. It's not kind of thinking about that long-term value of a customer. And I think, you know, people need to think. They need to do some maths on this. And think, you know, what is a long-term customer worth to us? What could they be worth? What do we know in the past about this? And how do we do it? And if, you know, if a long-term customer is worth hundreds and hundreds of pounds, well, I'd be saying, you know, spend some tens of pounds. Spend whatever it is to make that person come back. You know, how do you create your ecosystem, whatever that looks like, to make sure it is not. And it's not just about making it harder to go elsewhere because that will piss people off as well. But it has to be that thing where actually it's just easy with us. You know, our service is just so much better. If they've got a query, it's answered. I went to go and sign some papers for another business of mine this morning. And the guy's on the phone with someone else. And their customer service is having an argument with him. And I don't know what's going on there. But I kind of don't care. It's not that. That's a dead customer now. It's never going to go back. I'm not saying we should all bend over because, which is not my normal motto. I'm not saying we should all do that because there are loads of times when you shouldn't do it. But actually arguing with a customer is just not profitable. There must be a way that, excuse me, there must be a way. And again, little things here. I remember my old boss used to say sometimes it's better just to write the check and walk away. And in these kind of things, you know, whatever's going on there, like, you know, fine, Mr. ABC, we'll sort it. Sorry about that. Here it is. Because particularly now and the speed that, you know, bad reviews can go on, the speed that and how kind of they can spread, it's just not worth it.

Yeah.

And it's all of this, you know, it's all of this kind of stuff that, you know, we have to stop killing ourselves that customer loyalty is actually a thing unless we give them loads of great reasons to be loyal. Yeah. And that's it.

Like, you know, thinking about your built-on company, you know, like, I always want to go in and fix the problem. I think from the information you've given me, you know, this would be my, you know, these would be my tactics if they're listening. In fact, I might start my Bertie's built-on. That could be a thing. Do you know what?

The upshot of this is that I've bought myself a built-on maker.

So the whole industry, you've lost me forever.

We're going to make our own. So, yeah, so this is what we're going to do with our built-on company. So the first thing we're going to do is as soon as they've ordered, we're going to send them an email or contact them for feedback, actually find out, did they enjoy their built-on? If not, you know, how much built, you know, we'll talk to them about that. We're going to send them reminders, reminding them to buy some more. Once they do buy some more, it's all about getting them to that second purchase, that third purchase. Once we've got them two or three times, they'd like our built-on at that point. So then we should be actively monitoring and seeing, you know, if they stop buying for any reason, then we need to reach out because generally people won't tell you. And it could just be something that maybe their delivery was later. It was something stupid that actually is stopping them from buying again. But there's no harm in asking, right? And that's the sort of stuff that we're doing. Also, what we're going to do is we're going to analyse our top customers. And then we're going to surprise and delight them now and again. We're going to send them out something and just say, you know, you've been buying this built-on. Why don't you try this new one? It's not actually out yet. That surprise and delight is one of the most effective marketing things you can do because it's, you know, for a start, you know, it's really, you know, social, you know, Instagramable, isn't it? You know, someone getting a nice, beautiful box of built-on through the door.

The disdain in your voice.

So, yeah, that's how Bertie's built.

I think you're dead right. I would say we need, I think probably the crucial first step is to create some way of being able to check that data. Have something, have some checks, have an email list, have a way that you can actually look at it and go, right, these are at the end of every month, who's bought, who hasn't, or whatever it is. Because, I get it, maybe I'm wrong here. I just don't think most people have that. I think they have the data, but I don't think anybody has that kind of interrogation process to be able to do it. Yeah.

I mean, there's lots of, you know, there's lots of, like, data interrogation tools and things that, you know, will automate this whole process for you. You do, like, depending on the size of your business, you generally, well, with anything, you don't need it. If you've not got anyone in your business that can do it, as the CEO, head of growth, whatever, just put the data in, download the fucking spreadsheet and just have a look at it.

Yeah.

Like, you know, watch some YouTube videos, how to create a pivot table and just have a look. And you'll see patterns in that data. Yeah. And then if you can, you know, if you can isolate 10 customers and even just manually ring them, pick up the phone and do all that sort of stuff. And, you know, I talk about this from experience. This is exactly what I did with Film My Belly, which was an online takeaway. Like, we would look at those top customers and just ring them and ask them, why have you stopped ordering? What is it you like about the service? Get that stuff and then act on it. You know, it costs nothing. But people are very reluctant to pick up the phone to a customer. Oh, you know, like, what if they're busy? It's like, like, if that phone rang right now and it was the built-on customer, I mean, that would be fucking scary for one. But if they're built-on company, sorry, as you say, gee, hi, Paul, just noticed you haven't ordered, you know, do you mind if we send you something? You'd be over the moon. You'd be over the moon. Like, they'd be no, why the fuck are you ringing me? And that's what people think they're going to do. But actually, even just a phone call just to say, thank you for ordering. Like, these manual, low-efforts, low-cost things really, really do stand out. And I think not enough people take advantage of those things.

Yeah, I think you're doing right. It is super easy. It's super, you know. When things get bigger, it becomes a bit more of a challenge. But it still needs to be done. But, you know, it needs to be considered as a kind of income stream. It needs to be considered as a proper thing, you know. And I think that's what people aren't doing. And it'd be really easy for some people to listen, you know, listening to this. I think, that sounds quite complicated because I need to analyze some data and this and that. You just don't. You just, you know, you could all think of everybody listening to this. And I would urge you to do it. Go and think of the names of your 10, 20 best customers. Because you'll just know them. And if you don't, well, you've probably got a bigger problem than kind of dried me. Go and think. And just go and do something nice for them. And it costs nothing. Like, getting a letter through the post, it just costs nothing. Like, a little thank you card. And now's a great time, kind of towards the end of the year, you know, if people go out and with a, you know, kind of, you know, hey, Paul. Yeah, it's been another kind of crazy year. We just wanted to say thank you. Yeah. And if that goes to 20 people, you know, thank you cards at 5p and a stamp at, I don't know, whatever it is. So probably for less than a quid, you could have that out. And it doesn't need to be, that's not a sales tool. That's not a, you know, thanks very much and buy our stuff.

Yeah, absolutely.

But actually, it's just a, do you know what? We were looking about it. But you've been with us all through this year. Thanks very much. Yeah. And after that, there can be a, you know, hey, Paul, we've got this offer coming. There can be a, but there's a thing, there's a connection, there's a relationship. And I, I don't, okay, I might be on the loan on the, the built on thing. I don't think I'm alone in seeking loyalty and seeking kind of relationship and seeking belonging, which is a bit dramatic.

Yeah, no, it's, it's a completely, you know, it's a human. And then, um, it's just, yeah, it's, it's a very emotional thing, isn't it? Like, if you do something nice, you expect to be thanked for it. This is the reason we get so pissed off when we're driving. I'll be let someone out of a junction and then they don't say thank you. And then it ruins your day, right? That fucking bastard. It's like, you know, I always say to me, you know, you know, don't hold the door open for someone and then be pissed off when they don't thank you for it. Like, you know, you've done that, you've done that good deed, but you've not necessarily, it's nice when people say thank you. So in the same way, when someone's buying something from you, you can thank them. That doesn't necessarily mean they have to buy from you again. So if you do that good deed, say thank you, with no expectation of return, you will get a return from it. So test it and measure it and measure, you know, how many people you physically said thank you with, but don't necessarily do it with, you can't then follow up and say, hang on, dickhead. I sent you a fucking Christmas card. You've not bought from us again. That's not how it works. You know, just do the good deed. And it's like, you know, when we've said, we did a podcast episode before about, you know, like hiring people and working with people and being a great leader. It's the same thing like, you know, just saying to someone, Paul, you've done really good work there. That stuff costs nothing.

Yeah.

But that is really, really valuable. And you've not done it to try and get more great work, just actually thanking and acknowledging someone for something good they've done. And it's the same for customers as well.

And it's a massive part of the process. And you ask anyone that listened to this, they will tell you that customer referrals is really valuable.

Yeah.

And again, you know, I mean, it's just one of these weird things when I go out networking, which I don't do too much these days. But I used to go out quite a lot. And, you know, as soon as I hear that I'm in marketing, kind of like the barriers come up. And they're like, oh, well, we don't need to do any marketing. So we get all our business from word of mouth. And I'm like, well, that's brilliant. How do you get more people to talk about you? And then they, you know, they look at me like an idiot. And I'm like, well, hang on, you're telling me the thing that puts kind of food on your plate is other people talking about you. Yet you haven't got a process to even try and control that.

Yeah.

And I just, I mean, I find that kind of mind blowing anyway. But this is exactly part of it. You know, you doing, you're saying thank you. And then asking two, three, four, five, a month later, whatever it is. Hey, do you know anyone else? That's part of that referral process. If you want to get more referrals, you need to have more people that like you. To get more people that like you, you've got to put some bloody effort into them to kind of, to get them liking you. And it is, it's, it's a consistent thing. You know, that, you know, the thank you card in itself is not helpful. But the thank you card, followed by that little pre-launch offer. Yeah. You know, followed by that. Hey, look, we're trying a new flavor of whatever. We're trying this. I would love you to have a look at it for us. You know, and it is, you just build this process. And the tools out there are amazing. I think we've spoken about Bonjoro before. You know, Bonjoro is brilliant. For those that don't know, it's, I may be kind of doing a disservice here. But think of it as like a little, almost like a video platform that can link to your CRM and that sort of stuff. So actually, you could have someone buying from you. That will pop up a message on your phone. And you can then record a video saying, hey, Bertie, you know, just seen you purchased A, B and C. Do you know what? Thanks very much. You know, we love our customers. I hope you enjoy it. Any problems at all, you come to me. I'm Paul. I'm the boss. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But that is massive. Yeah. And that is a huge part of getting A, more profit and B, getting more customers via referral. And it just needs to be thought about as this process, process driven thing. But I don't know, maybe rant over really. But it just, this is where the cheap money is. This is where the easy money, getting your customers to buy again. But it will not happen just because you think they're loyal. No, that's right. Right.

And yeah, I think if you take away the expectation of a customer being loyal and then just, yeah, treat them with respect and listen to them, act on it when they actually take the time to feedback, respond to their emails. And, you know, that it will start to build. And I think that's the...

And it's the fun stuff. Yeah. This is like the best thing in marketing because you don't have to sell anything. You just need to be nice to people.

Yeah.

And most people quite enjoy being nice to people.

And like we've said before, it's far easier to sell to an existing customer because they know, like, trust you and all that stuff already than to acquire a new one. I think that's the best way to look at it. So I don't really know what else to add to the matter. Do you know what?

I would just... Don't pay this one lip service, guys. You know, obviously there's lots to kind of do, lots to kind of think about. But, you know, I would urge you all to spend some time thinking about what it looks like being one of your customers. You know, what is it like? Are you thanked? You know, is it easy to buy again? You know, do they get answers when they ask you questions? Because all they're doing is trying to get to know you better. They're trying to get... You know, even if it's a problem, you know, just... You know, if I had... You know, if it had been a mistake, just go and be a human. Go and speak to them. But actually view them as the profit in your business because it is the easiest, cheapest money that you'll make. And it is the sort of money that will last forever and will get you more money because all those things that you always talk about and how that you love referrals, these are the people that give you the referrals.

Exactly, they are.

And it is massively important. It is indeed. I'm off to season my beef.

Well, yeah, this new business, it's not going to run itself, is it? Let's get on it. Built on. Fantastic. Well, Paul, thank you very much again for joining me in the studio today.

I'm really sorry about the subject matter. I do feel better though. I feel like I've got it off my chest now. That's a good thing.

Well, that's very good. And actually, I have plenty of bit of dried beef now. So have you got any... I haven't.

Good to see you, mate. Let's call it a close. And we'll see you guys next time.

Yeah, thanks for listening. Bye.

We'll be back next week for another edition of the Throb podcast.

If you want to find out more, you can find me at paulchapmanuk.com.

And you can find me, Bertie, at bertiecord.co.uk. Thanks again. See you next week. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.