The Actual Reality of Running a Business

Welcome to Throb, The Reality of Business podcast. Real business chat from real people without the shiny veneer of gurus anywhere near it.

With your hosts Bertie Cordingly and Paul Chapman and maybe some guests along the route, we'll talk about our experiences of running business, helping others run a business and sharing real stories based on real experience.

Hello Paul! Hello mate! Hello, how are you? I'm very well. Another day, another podcast recording. It is. Isn't this grand. I love it. Do you know what? It's just more people should have conversations. Yes.

They don't necessarily need to be as ego driven like us and record those conversations. Just yeah, more people should do more talking.

It's good to talk. It is good to talk. We should use it as a marketing campaign. It could be. It'll never work. So what are we on to today, mate? Today, so we've got our Reality of Business podcast, otherwise known as Throb. I can't roll my R's. That's always something that I wish I could do. Can you do it? Throb. No. No. That's the answer. So yeah, The Reality of Business. So I think today we're going to talk about actually what the real reality is of running businesses because we've both done it. Yes. And we know lots of people that also do it. And also there's probably people listening that want to do it. So I thought actually let's just talk about running your own business in general. Let's go with that. So what do you want to say today?

I suppose like a really, a good place to start here, I think is, is it's no more noble running your own business. I think that's, that's really kind of important to kind of get out of this. It's not kind of cool or better. It's just an interesting thing. I think kind of the other thing is that it's also important to notice that it is, you know, it's a means to an end and that's the same with a job and that sort of thing. But I think, you know, it is, it is just more difficult. And again, it's really hard because as soon as you start to say that you end up in that kind of, oh, kind of woe is us, you know, kind of hustle, blah, blah, blah, blah, bullshit. But it is more difficult. And I think on a load of different levels, like even things like my personal opinion is that if you run a business, you need to be physically fitter than you do if you're in a job, because you need to be able to push your body harder because there is more to do accounts, blah, blah, blah, blah, along with kind of the stuff that you do. I think you do need to be physically fitter. There's more to do. There is less downtime. There's less kind of sitting, like actual physical sitting downtime. And I think, you know, these are the things that, you know, kind of you don't get talked about. People don't kind of don't consider all this kind of stuff. But I think, you know, the thing for me is that I think, you know, one of the toughest things, you know, kind of if that's what we're kind of going into is that you never win when you run your own business. Well, perhaps you do. I mean, but you all know it's better than me. But maybe when you build and you sell, that's your win. But I think, you know, the kind of the day to day for most business owners, you know, you do something, it works. Well, great. You do the next thing and it kind of disappears kind of so quickly. I think, you know, I think that is one of the biggest things about business is that there's no end point to it.

Yeah. Yeah. I think you're right. And again, you've got some really good points there. I think, yeah, the winning thing I'm going to come back to because, yeah, I think that's an interesting one. I mean, when I get asked about running a business, I always try to be really, really clear and transparent that it's really fucking hard work. Like it's it's hard work. And I'm not trying to scare people off doing a business. Well, actually, no, maybe I am. And let me sort of tell you my thinking behind this. I think if you want to run a business, you know, like from me, I've always known that even when I was at school, you know, we spoke about this in the other podcast. Right. Like when I was at school, like going out cleaning cars, selling Mega Drive games, all of it. That's all I wanted to do. I wanted to do something of my own. You just know. And I was I was part of a conversation with a woman recently and she was saying, you know, it's almost like I'd like it's that feeling of if you want a baby. It's like, you know, if you want to have a baby, then it's like you'll feel it. And it's like, you know, and no matter what somebody tells you, you can't take that away. And I feel that's what it is for wanting a business. So for running a business. So I think if it's something that you really do want to try, then try it. But, you know, ultimately is going to be hard work. And I think that's the difference where I get frustrated is. And especially like at the beginning of the first lockdown, social was covered with people like, OK, now you've got all of this free time. You're on furlough. Don't watch Netflix. Run your own business. You know, copy this, copy that. And that just pisses me off because then you're almost you're running to somebody else's ideals and things like that. And it's like if so, if you know, and I think we had this conversation at the beginning of lockdown. It's like it's it's so personal, isn't it? You can't tell someone else what to do because you're just not going to not going to enjoy it. So if you want to do it, great. It's going to be hard work. You're going to have to sacrifice, give up things, you know, time, money, freedom, probably, you know, initially. But if you want to do it, it will be worth it in the same way that if you have a child, you literally give up the first 18 years of your life. But it's you don't you know, it's it's enjoyable, isn't it? You know, it's that even the changing shitty nappies and dealing with all the other stuff like it's you know, there is genuine pleasure and love that comes with that with that with with raising children. And I think it's the same for business as well.

Yeah, I think I think the brutal honesty here is that most people shouldn't run a business, you know, and and there are too many people that do that shouldn't because their life will actually be better off, more profitable, more relaxed, less stressful by not doing it. And there's nothing wrong with that. And there is this there is this, I don't know, hustle guilt or whatever. Yeah, I've just made that thing up.

No, it's true. It's a real thing.

Yeah. But most people, they just they shouldn't do it. They're not cut out to do it. And again, you almost don't even want to say that because that makes it sound like, you know, kind of I'm being down on those people. I get it. I have no idea. We'll find out in, you know, when I retire in many years from now, maybe next week, maybe I wasn't cut out for it. And I'm kind of fully, you know, as my business has changed, I definitely wasn't cut out to do the business I started to do because I didn't really want to do it. And we've kind of said before, but I think, you know, this is a reality. Most people shouldn't do it. But actually, it's really interesting. People get trapped into doing it and people get trapped into it. And again, I guess it comes from a lack of knowledge at the start. It comes. I've been knowing what it's really about, which is, again, it's unfair because how would you know? But I think, you know, there is that stigma about businesses that go and fail and people have to go back into employment and people don't like that, which is just weird because that's just the same as anything else. Yeah, there's no kind of thing there. And I think, you know, it's just a very different way to spend your time. And it is, like you said about children, it is entirely all-consuming. And I think, you know, most people don't want that if they're honest. You know, most people aren't equipped for it.

Yeah, I think you're right. I think the cut out there, and I was just trying to think, like, I don't know whether I'd use that word. But I think it's, I think the sentiment is the same. So maybe I'm just changing the language a little bit. But it's, yeah, I mean, you know, it's like, you know, physically, you know, like, I don't believe we're born with special skills or anything like that. You know, like, you know, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's, I'm sure there's some science, and I'm not a scientist in any way, shape or form that will, you know, but, you know, no one is born a footballer. That comes with hard work and practice and things like that. And of course, you know, there are genetics in play and stuff. And, you know, you've got to be physically, you know, able to be able to perform those things. But, you know, the majority of people on this earth, according to theory, run a marathon. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they want to run a marathon, nor should run a marathon. So it's not necessarily like you physically aren't able because I, yeah, when you sort of put that sort of person in a box, like, you know, I don't really sort of buy into that. However, just because you can doesn't mean that you should.

Yes.

And I think that's, that's almost the point. So like when you're, yeah, like I refer back to those social media things. It's like, hey, stop watching Netflix or, you know, you're on furlough. Use that, give me that money and I'll show you how to, you know, run an affiliate marketing business or whatever fucking one they're selling.

Yeah.

And, you know, it plays on that guilt and it's almost like suddenly you don't feel worthy enough. It's like, well, actually, like I'm on furlough. This is probably the only time in my life I'm going to be able to enjoy this time.

Be paid for doing nothing. Exactly.

Like, so you don't have to do what something, like if you're just enjoying spending time with your kids or even just watching Netflix or playing computer games, or just knocking one out 10 times a day, like just fucking enjoy it. It doesn't matter though, does it? Like it's not, it's, it's entirely personal.

I love the commitment. I've got to eight. Yeah. Come on. I've got two more to go. I'm tired. Come on now. Yeah.

If somebody literally said to me, I mean, I mean, we're not talking long term, are we? Because I don't know. I mean, if someone said, right, all I want you to do is, you know, have to take three months off work and just masturbate a few times a day. It's like, yeah, why not? Like I'm well in.

Like, I mean, there's a few times and there's eight.

So, you know, yeah. Anyway, we digress. Surely not. But the point is, it's, you don't have to follow someone else's ideals. You don't have to follow someone else's goal or planner just because they say. And you were right at the beginning when you said, you know, the majority of people, you know, shouldn't work in a business. And actually, that's correct because we need people to work in businesses. Like if every business was just a company of one, you know, we'd have no computers, iPhones, bridges. Like it's not physically possible. You know, you actually, you need the hierarchy of people. So it's, and there's no shame in that. Like if that's what you want to do, you shouldn't feel shame. The whole comparison thing is that, oh, they're doing this and they're doing that. And I should be doing that. It's like, do whatever the fuck you want.

And kind of, you know, getting well beyond our pay grade and remit here. The whole world changes. Everything in the world becomes better if people strive for happiness. And if people are really honest about what really makes them happy and do that. You know, and I think, you know, I don't, I said before, I don't have any passion for any business. I enjoy what I do. I don't know if I'm a particularly good business owner. But it does genuinely make me happy doing this kind of work. It kind of really makes me happy. And I think, you know, it has to start with that. And then the real honesty to go, do you know what? I am, I mean, I know loads of guys that are happy nine to five. And again, I don't even want to say it because nine to five, it's somehow, even though this is a thing that built our world, it's somehow got this kind of connotation. Yeah, it's in there. And, you know, they go in, they take their salary. You know, they don't kind of feel much challenged by the day, as it were. But they're happy as. And I think there's a real, there's a real kind of proper argument for that just to do the shit that makes you happy. And, you know, there's, I mean, I like to be challenged. I don't like to be bored, you know. And again, I know there are jobs that can do this. But, you know, I can think of, you know, two or three people off the top of my head that actually, they just get through their day. They don't hate it. They don't love it. But it pays them to have the life. And that is brilliant. There's no stress. There's no hassle. You know, we've talked about this before. I can think of, you know, someone in particular that, you know, earned way more for way less effort with no stress in their back bedroom. But decided they wanted to business. And basically the business, all the business did was pay for the staff to be there. Yeah. Which is kind of pointless. And actually he'd gone from being, let's just say he was a carpenter. He wasn't a carpenter. You know, he'd been, you know, gone. He was a carpenter. He loved paying with wood.

Don't we all.

Was he on furlough for three months? Don't we all. Dun-dun-dun.

But he loved doing that. But when you run a business like that, you stop being, getting to play with your wood.

Yeah.

And you start to have to manage the playment of wood. That's why you listen, folks, for that kind of nugget of wisdom. That's the thing. Yeah. And it is. You just, and I think there's a load of, there's a load of kind of fallacies. This is just turning into the willy edition, isn't it? There's a load of fallacies. You know, like the whole kind of you get more time. Now, the theory is you get more time because you get to choose. But pretty much every business I know, I know, certainly at the start, works more than they ever did in a business.

Yeah.

You know, and again, it's proliferated by this, you know, entrepreneurship is working, you know, five years like no one else will. So you can live like no one else can. And I get all of that. And there is a truism to that. But actually, that kind of, I don't want to. You know, we said before, you know, I first started out, I was like, well, I'm going to be a millionaire. Brilliant. Because that's what my boss was. I thought, well, this is great. And actually, I realised quite quickly that I don't, I didn't want to put that time in. And, you know, people do. Now, you know, I can get a very, very good friend of mine that, you know, he was, we travelled together. And he got to the point where he's like, no, I want to go and start now. And he kind of left travelling a bit early and went back and set up. And he's worked probably harder than anyone I know. And he's built a brilliant business. And he's now, he's got a brilliant life. And that's it. And it's back into that, look, what's the, what's the honesty of the situation? The situation, he wanted to go and do it. And he worked really hard and got into really good jobs. And, you know, I'd call him, I'd been out on the smash all weekend and he'd be in the office on a Sunday. But he's now in a point where he's got this incredible business. He's got, you know, more than enough cash than he needs. And he's very, very happy. And that's brilliant. But it's that personal stuff. You know, I think we said it in a previous podcast. Make sure you are, the thing that you're doing, whether that's work or business, make sure it is living your business dream, not that of someone else's or it's proliferated on social media or whatever it is. Because I think that's when anything, business ownership and or kind of employment, that's when it starts to fall down, when it doesn't tick those boxes. Yeah.

Yeah, that's right. And it is so personal. And again, like just so many points that you've just covered there with the whole, you know, thing about like growing a business for the sake of growing.

Yeah.

You know, that's something that, you know, I'm very aware now that as soon as, you know, my business at the level where I have to start employing loads of stuff, like it just doesn't interest me anymore.

Yeah.

Like that isn't, that isn't what I want to do. But, you know, equally, it's my business and that may change in a couple of years. You just don't, you just don't know. And I think I like that freedom, like I'm very noncommittal, I think, you know, in that regard. And the other thing that I was thinking, like it's, and this applies whether you're running a business or maybe you're working for someone, right? It's almost like that, I suppose it's similar things like a promotion promotion, say. So, you know, take for example, if you're a cleaner and you really enjoy cleaning.

Yeah.

And then, you know, you would, someone might say to you, oh, you should start, you know, your own cleaning business. And technically that's what you do, you know, hire some more cleaners and things. That is a completely different animal. And actually then because you're going from cleaning, you know, it's something that's actually quite satisfying and fulfilling.

Yeah.

You know, I genuinely enjoy cleaning stuff. Like, you know, like I enjoy cleaning the car or whatever. Because you get that satisfaction at the end of it. There's a big difference between doing that and then hiring someone to do it. And I've seen this in organisations where you've had like, you know, CTOs have generally been really good coders in their time.

Yeah.

And then they've just naturally then started employing people to the point where they're just managing people and not coding anymore. And, you know, sales is another good example. You can have amazing salespeople, but generally do not translate into really good sales managers. So just because you can progress, just because you are at a point where you can start hiring staff, it's like, well, actually, what is the point? And is that still going to fulfil me? Like, because you only get one life, right? And it's ultimately, as you say, it's a means to an end. You've got to do something you enjoy. That's really interesting.

I remember working with a client ages ago and I kind of came up with the concept of kind of, you know, accidental managers. And it's exactly that, you know, people that were really good at their jobs get promoted. So you end up having, you know, that's like the weakest point in a business's life because you get the person who is good at it. You now get an inexperienced manager managing a team where the best person has gone. And I think there's a real kind of comparison there with business. And I think a load of the business owners that I meet are accidental business owners. They were doing the thing. They loved doing the thing. They either thought they could do it better or something else happened. So they've gone and done it. And without thinking, well, actually, as soon as you do it, everything changes. I go, yeah, can I be a back to my old boss? I talk a lot about him. I learned a lot, really. You know, but he would say, yeah, he would say, he'd say, like, actually, when you start to run a business, your crucial role is no longer to do the thing. It is to effectively be a marketer of a thing. So, you know, if I was a carpenter and I start a business, my role is nothing to do with carpentry. I need to market a carpentry business. And loads of carpenters aren't really good at that. You know, and except certainly kind of, you know, every other business. I think it very, as soon as you choose to run a business, not only what you spend your time doing is there, but actually what really brings the value. It doesn't matter how good you are with your wood if you've got no customers.

Yeah.

You know, and, you know, the biggest, you know, the hardest thing about running a business is getting new business because most people don't really know how to do it. And I think, you know, that is, again, we're back into that, you know, kind of throb, but, you know, that is the reality of business. I think if you want to go and do that sort of stuff, the stuff that you need to be good at actually has very little bearing on the stuff that is that you're doing.

Yeah. And I think this all comes back to really understanding what it is that you want to do and why you're doing it and just be really crystal clear on that.

Yeah.

So, you know, it's all about, you know, having, you know, having that goal and having a plan and stuff. And I think it's, it's got to be, it can't be like a revenue driven number because, oh, and this is what you were talking about at the beginning, actually, what I want to come back. You said about winning. You can never really win this.

Yeah.

And I, if you're going at this with the idea that, okay, I'm going to work solidly for, you know, six years, sell a business, be a millionaire, you know, and that is your only sort of motivation, then there's, there's like that entire six years is going to be fucking miserable.

Yeah.

And, you know, you might, there's a chance that you might make it and there's, there's a chance that you won't.

It's probably a bigger chance you won't. Yeah.

There's, there's a much bigger chance that you won't. Whereas if you are, it's, you've got to, I say you've got to, but yeah, no, you should, you should be. Well, if you can find something that you enjoy doing, you know, it's that old cliche, isn't it? That you'll never work a day. Yeah. You know, you'll never work a day in your life, but it is, it is more about that because then actually you're enjoying doing what you're doing constantly. And then, you know, that win at the end, which actually, you know, it's that, it's that old sort of thing about, you know, you work all, you work hard and then you retire at 65, you know, then you live your retirement, but you know, you're old. And like, so, you know, that, I think that mindset is, I think you've got to flip that in its head and I'm not saying, you know, don't work, but what I'm saying, sorry, don't work for somebody else. I'm saying that don't think as retirement as the, as the prize. Cause you, the chances are, you know, there's not, it's not, I mean, what we've seen in the last couple of years, you know, nothing certain life throws us fucking curve balls that we just don't know. So it's, it's almost about living and appreciating every day. So if you can find a business that fits that lifestyle and you're enjoying it and you can take money out and do the things that you want and spend time with your kids or whoever, that's far better than thinking, oh, it's going to be okay. Because in 10 years, I'll be a millionaire because, you know, from going through that experience and luckily I really enjoyed the work that I did, but it doesn't, you know, when you have that big exit, it doesn't change it. Like it's not, you're still the same person. You've still got the same friends. It's like, it's, it's, it's, you know, of anything, it's just not, it's not what you expect it to be. You know, it's not, it doesn't like, you know, when you see like a lottery ring or whatever, and then it's like, it just, it isn't like that. You know, it's like suddenly that, you know, yes, you don't have any financial worries, but it brings a whole new set of problems and complications, things that you wouldn't have even thought about until you're in that experience. So it's not, becoming a millionaire is not a silver bullet to happiness.

Yeah.

You've got to find something that makes you happy. And if you make money doing it, that's fucking amazing. I mean, you've got to make some money, obviously, you know, to live, but, you know, if you can make good money at it and it solves other problems in your life, fantastic. But you don't need that much money to be happy, generally.

Yeah, I think a lot of it is like a consciousness. I think it's really important to kind of check in with it because you think, actually, yeah, I'm going to do this so I can do, you know, kind of give the kids a great life, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. You think, well, yeah, but to do that, I've basically got to disappear from their life for six years. That's a lot of time to miss. There's a lot of time. And again, it's neither right nor wrong. You know, it's an entirely kind of personal thing, but this is why you need to be aware of these things kind of before you go in it. And, you know, again, I think a lot of people kid themselves that they have more time, but they don't. They'll spend more time with their kids. They don't. You know, I've been, you know, it's been a real kind of change over the last year or so. I'd find myself sat with the kids in my lap with my phone down by the side trying to work there. And you think, that's no point. Again, you know, kind of, you know, a wise man once said, you know, at any point, I'm either a bad business owner, a bad husband or a bad dad. And the two things, two things? Yeah. That's counting for you. Those things, they're mutually incompatible almost. Well, actually, I don't think they are. I think you can handle all those things, but it takes some consciousness. It won't happen overnight. You will find yourselves disappearing into one of those rabbit holes or whatever the right phrase is for it if you don't kind of check in. And I think, you know, you and I talk about it. It's like, you know, you need to be able to sit in your business and look, well, actually, is this achieving what I want it to achieve? And crucially, what I set out to achieve, do I still want it? You know, I think we've already said in this or before is that, you know, I didn't want the business I started out building. And I think that's it. You know, like you said, you don't want staff at the moment. Again, I don't want to spend time with any kind of staff at the moment. But in some years' time, well, I might. You know, I'm already kind of taking steps. I've enjoyed kind of my consultative life. I wonder if that's a word, consultative. I've enjoyed that kind of part of it. But I'm now in a place where actually I'm starting to do things differently, albeit within how I want to do it, that are building for a future that I wasn't doing before. And, you know, and this is where, again, this is where we can go really kind of deep into this. This is why I think one of the most valuable things you can have in your life is some kind of financial advisor, someone that can kind of do these sort of things. You think, well, actually, for a long time, I thought my business is never going to be worse than anything because it's me. Over the last, you know, five years or whatever it is, it's been me. There is no value there, really, because even, you know, yes, you can sell your book and there's no value there. So actually, things I've had to do is earn money, take it out, put it into other different things, investments and that sort of stuff. And I think that's why, you know, back to kind of taking advice, this is good advice to kind of take on. But I think as ever with these kind of things, and there is a real theme with, you know, as you see our chats, but it's that consciousness, isn't it? It's getting into it, knowing what it might be like, which is why hopefully kind of this is useful to people. But also that kind of, does it fit? Does it really, truly, in the dark of night when I'm stressed and I'm worrying, does it fit with what I want?

Yes. And it's more just, you know, highlighting those realities, because I think if you are going to run something, you're going to do it anyway. You're not going to listen to this. I don't think anyone's going to listen to this podcast who really wants to start a business and then get to the end and like, oh, actually, that sounds too difficult. Like, it's not going to happen. You know, using the baby analogy again, right? Like, you know, just because you've got to change your feet, it's like a few nappies.

Yeah.

You're like, yeah, fuck it. Like, everyone does it. It's okay. But it might not be the right time at this moment.

Yeah.

So, you know, it might just deflect that. But again, with anything, there is never, there's never a right time. Yeah. So I suppose on the flip side of it, you know, the reality of business is like, if this thing is burning inside you and you're waiting for the perfect time or whatever, it's not coming, mate. Like, it's not. Like, just fucking do it now. And it's interesting because like, you know, going back to like fillmybelly.com, which was the business that, you know, then had the exit that I was referring to earlier. You know, like when we talk about, you know, you know, like people know about the, you know, the big exit and everything and it's sort of, you know, then the whole, all the stuff we just ate, which, you know, was really exciting, the stuff. But, you know, it's almost like it's an overnight success then. You know, like even you can't quantify, I can't quantify, I can't get across enough how many hours. Literally, I would get up at like, I mean, I wasn't an early riser at that point. I kept half seven. I would be sat at my desk at eight, you know, eating my cornflakes in my dressing gown. And I would probably be there till midday, then get, then get dressed, then be there till midnight every day.

Yeah.

Like constantly. And that was like that for three years. And, you know, having friends like, you know, you're going out, I can't, you know, I need to monitor orders and things like that. And this is pre-smartphone, right, as well. So like you couldn't, you couldn't just take stuff away. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You couldn't just check, you know, after a few years, I got like the first iPhone, but it was ridiculously slow and the internet really didn't work that well on it, you know, but that sort of stuff helped. But it was, it's hard work. I wouldn't change it. I would do things differently. As in, what I mean is I wouldn't go back and, yeah, change what I've done. But if I was to do that again, I would do things very differently now. Yeah, business is hard work, you know, and we were absolutely fucking broke. Like, you know, remembering a time, which I've told this before, whether it's been on this podcast, if it has, I apologise and repeat myself. But, you know, like, I remember like being at a, in Southend Seafront and like Oliver, who's my eldest son, wanting to go on a ride. It was like 50p. It's like, we literally don't have it. Like, you know, that's how fucking broke we were. We were completely broke. And, you know, friends paying for us to go out for meals and things like that. Just, so there's hard times, but if you want to do this, you're just going to think, yeah, that's fine. I'll do that. You know, like it's, if you want to run a business, but it's, this is the reality. I'm not saying that everybody's going to go through that, but it's, yeah.

Yeah. And it's like, you know, I, you know, I kind of, I hope this puts people off and not in equal measure.

Yeah.

Because I'm just a big fan of people doing stuff, trying stuff. And also knowing that actually it's really difficult to properly destroy your world. Not impossible, everybody. Don't try. But it's really kind of difficult to destroy your world. So actually you can always go back and, you know, it's that, but I think, you know, I'm a huge fan of kind of people doing it. But it is, it's, it's just important to know stuff. You know, you talked, talked about money there is that again, another reality.

Most people earn less running a business than they did in the job.

It's, if something's there, if you're thinking about it, just go and fucking do it. But, you know, do it properly. And if it's going to fail, fail fast.

Yeah.

And then, you know, as the majority of people, I say majority, I'm sure there are some, you know, aren't unemployable, right? So, you know, if you leave like a, if this stuff is burning inside you that you really want to go and try. And, you know, maybe you've like tried doing it in your spare time and things like that. And then, you know, there's a point where you have to hand your notice in and do it. Like the chances are you're not unemployable. So you can try it. You can always go and get another job. Might not be the same job with the same company, but, you know, the, the, of course, everything carries a risk. But you can always, you know, quantify those risks and mitigate them by, you know, like, well, actually, like, what's the worst that can happen? I'll go and get another job. Whereas, but it's, yeah, most people would just think, oh, well, I can't leave my job because, you know, like I've got my pension or whatever. Like all of these things are fixable. The amount of people that said to me, like during Fill My Belly and after the sale and things like that, oh, ordering takeaway online. I had the idea. Yeah. Great. Well done. Well fucking done for having the idea. I fucking did it. Yeah. No bad. Like, do you know, it's like, it's almost, it's almost like they're like trying to get one up. It's, you know, I'm not like taking it personally or anything like that. I'm just saying it for amusement purposes. But it is that, that is my advice. Like, if you've got the idea, go and fucking do something about it. Because if you don't, you will be that person saying someone else has gone and done it in six years time. Oh, I had the idea. And they'll be saying the same thing to you. Well, why don't you just think about it? So if you've got it and you want to try it, go and do it. Like literally go and do it. Like what's the worst that can happen? Yeah. But don't do it blindly if it's not working. Because again, I've seen that mistake as well. It's like you just carry on with a business that isn't getting any traction whatsoever. There has to be a point where you just say, no, fuck this. I'm going to do something else. Yeah. I think that's it.

And again, this is, again, as we say a lot, it's probably another kind of podcast. But I think it's really important to know when to stop. And this is where I think the, the current sort of guru-esque hustle, hustle, hustle thing has been hugely damaging. Because there are plenty of times, I think we probably both run businesses that actually run, run, run, run, run. It's just not working. Yeah. Kind of, you've got to know when to pull the plug. And that's the same with, you know, it is the same with business ownership and everything else. I think you, you have to know, you know, again, this is it. This is where it's different. Because you can be in employment forever and you can just go and run it. And that's, and that's ace. But there are plenty of time for the absolute right thing to do for the business, for your sanity, for your family and everything else is to walk away. But, you know, again, this is one of the big downsides of the business is that it, it gets into you. It gets into your blood. It infects you almost. And you can't see the wood for the trees and, you know, no amount of advice there. And you just, I'll just keep doing it. I'll just work harder. I'll just work harder. I'll just work harder. And at some point you have to have that ability to go, no, it's, it's not a thing anymore. It's, you know, it needs to stop for kind of, you know, sanity and everything else. And, and again, that's really interesting for me because that's not a case of it's a failure and move on. And it's, well, I'm going to stop doing that to allow me to do the next thing. You know, whatever that next thing is. Yeah.

And yeah, that's it. And this is a conversation that, you know, I've had to have those awkward conversations. Like in my job, I always make a joke, but actually it's, it's, it's probably true. The majority of my time, especially when I'm getting new clients on board, not necessarily once I'm working with them, but that initial stage, I'm telling people stuff that they really don't want to hear.

Yeah.

As in, you know, like, you know, this needs to change or whatever, or like, you know, and people that have really flogged a dead horse, for example, for a long time.

Yeah.

Or have built a business based on assumptions that have not been validated. And in your head, there's assumptions. The more you say things, the more you think about them, the realer you are. And actually when you challenge that, and the way that I always like to say is like, you know, would this stand up in court? Right. So like, if you're saying, oh yeah, well, if we do this, then customers will tell others. It's like, okay, have you got any evidence to do that? Oh no, but that's what people do. No mate, they don't. Like really, it doesn't work like that. So unless you can evidence that thing, that's an assumption and that needs validating. Yeah. Because your whole business is built on that.

That's a really interesting thing, kind of telling people that you don't want to hear, because there are so, again, this is into the complexity. There are so many examples of people being told that and they've gone and smashed it.

Yeah.

And, you know, again, it's all of this stuff. It is that kind of that living, it's living consciously. And keep checking back in. Is it what you want? Is it, you think? Because it is a challenge running a business. It's more of a challenge than it's ever been, because every market is full. Every market is now a buyer's market, because there are too many options. They have all the power. And actually, if you're not really on your game with it, both enjoying it and kind of having the talent to it, and I think it's the gap in the market. So, okay, then, if you are listening to this, what do we tell people? If someone is kind of thinking, look, is it for me? What do we want them to know?

I think it's definitely possible. So, first understand what the reasons are that you want to do it. Is it because you've had this idea for ages and, you know, you really want to test it out and, you know, you've got that feeling inside you and it's not a feeling I can describe. You will know you've got it. And it doesn't mean that you have to have that, but your chances of success are obviously higher. So, yeah, make sure you're doing it for the right reasons. And ironically, you know, one of the wrong reasons is just because I want to be rich. I want to be a millionaire. Like, that's, it's the chances of success are much, much lower. But again, not impossible, but improbable. That you will get that result. So, I think, first of all, understand what it is you want to do. And then break it down as simple as, so let's just say, you, okay, let's use Fill My Belly, isn't it? So, let's just say you wanted to launch a takeaway ordering website.

Yeah.

So, break it down into steps. So, your natural thing might be, okay, so what's my first step? I haven't got a website, so I'll go and build that website. So, you'll build the website and then you'll go out and sell to customers. Already you've just spent fuck knows how many thousands of pounds building that website. Yeah, yeah. Then you've got to market it. That isn't the right way of doing it. So, the first, so what I did, and, you know, this is before understanding, this is actually like a mythology for startups. You go to any startup incubator and they will take you through this process. You test it. You smoke test it. So, basically, what I did is I drew a picture of a website and went out and sold that as a website that was in progress of being built. It wasn't. I wasn't conning anybody. As in, I was selling this in March and the website was launching on the 29th of June. So, went out, sold it, took the deposits off people that were then used to fund the website. If I couldn't build the website, I was going to give them the deposit back. It was all on board. But there's nothing wrong with that. But what that did was validated that people were going to pay to go onto that website. So, that was problem one. You know, the next problem then is actually are people then going to use it? Now, you know, that was something I probably could have validated a lot earlier. But actually, we then did just launch and did it. But what we did is we ran some advertising, had a landing page, captured email addresses. So, people were showing intention. They were physically seeing Fill My Belly On. We had it on the tram in Nottingham. We put leaflets through the door. So, people were going to the website and giving us their email address so we could tell them when it launched. So, there was that interest there. And that was quite a hard thing. Now, it's so much easier. So, you know, we'd validated the restaurants that were going to pay on it. And we validated that there was some customer demand. But you can keep doing that constantly all the way through. So, you could run, you know, if you've got a product, for example, you could mock something up and run an ad on Instagram or Facebook for people to buy this product. So, you've got like, I don't know, let's just say you're selling a canvas or maybe like a new phone case or something. Literally mock it up. Put it on there. Buy now. Someone clicks through to the ads. And then you've got all of the blurb on there. And you've got the buy button. Somebody clicks that buy button. And you've then got a page that says, actually, you know, we're pre-launch. We're not taking your money off you. But what you've just done is you've just validated. You've literally, someone has physically got their wallet out. They are ready to buy. They have clicked that button. They have told you they want to buy that product. That is very different from me saying to you, oh, Paul, I've got this idea for a new phone case. Would you buy it? Yeah, of course, mate. That sounds amazing. And that's the difference. So, there are things that you can do right now to like, you know, test and validate these ideas, you know, before you go and hand your job in and things like that. But going back to that example with Fill My Belly, I took that week off work, sold that, got five people to sign up. But paying 350 quid sign up fee. So, I already had like, whatever it was, nearly two grand to go and pay the deposit for the web people. I then went on Monday and was like, do you know what? I'm handing my notice in. Yeah. So, that was enough for me. You know, that was what my thing was. So, you know, you can, there are ways to do it and mitigate that risk. Yeah, I think so.

I think, you know, on that, I would want people to know, which sounds kind of arrogant in itself. I want people to know that there are loads of different ways to run a business. And this is why I think this is an important topic for us to kind of cover is that look at what's cool. You know, if you're in a business now and you want to start it, look at where the pain could be or look at what's causing you the pain and think if there's different ways of doing it. You know, another kind of thing to, you know, I think we talked earlier about kind of cleaners. In fact, if you, you know, to grow a cleaning business, to make more money from your cleaning business, you need more cleaners. Well, possibly. But if you love cleaning, then you don't want more cleaners because they're doing the work that you want to do. You're now a manager of cleaners and da, da, da, da. And you look to do it differently. And I think, you know, there's a great example of this. There's a company, I forget its name, but it's a car detailing company. I think they were based in Derby to start with. Anyway, this is the guy, I believe the story is, and this may be made up, but it doesn't really matter, that he loved cleaning his cars. You know, when he was a kid, he'd go around to the garages and he'd just kind of clean their cars and he'd got a job there. And, you know, he wanted to do this as a career. And at this point, you kind of have two decisions to make. You either clean it, you know, for five quid with a dirty bucket at the back of the dog and duck, where we've all been, Bertie. Or you decide to do it differently. And this guy decided to do it differently. And I think his top car wash is 17 grand. And, you know, it starts at seven grand. And, you know, that's an important thing to kind of know is that there are loads of different ways of doing the same business. And actually, what's quite interesting about that for me from a marketing geek point of view is it's actually probably easier to sell a 17 grand car wash than it is a five quid car wash. Because everybody's got the five quid car wash. You know, but if I've got, you know, if I've got a £100,000 supercar, am I going to want it clean?

Yes.

Am I going to want a dirty bucket at the back of the dog and duck? Not for my car. Yeah. You know, and this is it. And, you know, but you get to check. And I think this is why, you know, we've talked a bit about the getting into business. But I think, you know, if you are listening to this and you are running a business and you've got these kind of challenges and you are finding it tough, this is not a black and white success or failure thing. This is what are the challenges I've got on? How do I do it differently? And, you know, one of those challenges for me that I never enjoyed managing people. I love people, most of them, not all of them, quite a few. Maybe we'll do a list about that.

But I didn't enjoy doing it. And the kind of common belief in business is that, well, if you need to, you know, if you want to go to a bigger business, you need some people in there. Now, that's not the truth. You know, again, outsourcing, et cetera, et cetera. Or, you know, doing it very differently. Just charge, you know, a whack load more for something and people will pay it. And, you know, you think, yeah, of course, there are a lot of people with really expensive cars. They're only there to be seen, really. You know, kind of driving, I guess. But they're only there to look at my amazing Shiloh Williams.

It's car shows and stuff. It is.

It's like, yeah, it's like you want it clean, properly clean. And you don't want, and it's, yeah. And, you know, this guy's client to all the guys in London with the massive supercars. I believe, again, this might be here. So, you know, he does a month of the year or two months of the year, you know, the crown prince of Dubai and just goes and does all his, you know, he's got the incredible wax and he cleans with lasers and all this kind of stuff, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it is, I think, you know, that for me would be that, you know, when you're looking at the challenges of running a business, you kind of realise, believe, know, understand. There's loads of different ways of doing it. Loads of different ways of doing it. And just because it's causing you pain, it doesn't, if you really want to do it and you've got the belief then, you know, like you said, you validate it. So, you know, this is a door worth pushing against. There may well be different ways of doing it. Yeah. Yeah.

It's very easy, isn't it, to just think that, you know, everyone's, yeah, as you said, the car cleaner is a great example. You know, you only have to drive very far and there's loads of car washes, isn't there? Literally, you know. And people are then competing on price and it is, you know, you're like, it was the cheapest, right? But, yeah, you know, to then suddenly have something that's a little bit different, you know, it's the same thing. It's still cleaning a fucking car, right? But, yeah, you know, it's like, it's, and are you going to, I don't think you could, I personally, you know, would say that there's a big difference between a £5 car wash and a £100 car wash, right? I don't think I'd tell the difference between a £100 car wash and a £17 car wash. Do you know what I mean? I think, and it's that, but what the difference is that if you've got, you know, that sort of money, it's almost like, oh, mate, your car's amazing. Oh, yeah, I've just let it clean. It's only £17.

It's a bragging right. Exactly. Absolutely a bragging right.

But, and there is a market for that, you know, there's a market for it. So if you can find something that fits that niche to go after that market, then well fucking done. Yeah, it is.

And I think, you know, for me, I think, you know, kind of close it out sort of thing. I think the thing that you think is that if you are going to run a business, as opposed to other ways of kind of, you know, kind of generating your world, is that you have to enjoy the journey as much as you desire the destination. Because it is, it's a lifestyle thing. I don't know, again, it's a bad word. It's got connotations now, hasn't it? But it's, not those connotations. Although, I don't, you have to enjoy it. It is, it's day to day. You know, I'm waking up in the morning thinking about it. I'm thinking about it in the night. I'm, you know, this and that. I see things. And you can't, I don't know, not particularly with what me do. That sounds quite arrogant. But, you know, because, you know, a lot of my time is spent creating marketing and marketing ideas and kind of strategies for other people. Pretty much everything I see, oh, that's interesting. I could do that and that and that and that and that. And I think, you know, that, I suppose you have to realise these things, aren't you? This kind of, again, we talked about last time, this, you know, you on the steps of a jet throwing money at people. That's not business ownership. Business ownership is hard work all day, every day. Very little reward, both in terms of kind of, you know, acknowledgement and cash for certainly kind of a long time with it. But it can be ace. And I love it. I couldn't, I mean, I never say never in anything, really. But I can't see myself having a job again. I mean, I don't know.

I'm just unemployable in general. I think so. I wouldn't be able to hold a job again.

I think I'm almost certainly unemployable. That said, you know, in the unlikely event that someone offers me the money I kind of earn for doing. You're a whore.

You would take the money, wouldn't you? Yeah. Hashtag yeah.

If someone gave me the money for just doing what I want to, how I want to do it, and the time I do it, I'd take it in a heartbeat. Because suddenly I don't need to do anything else. I can literally turn off my desk and go, well, it's this. This is this. This is this. This is this. This. Off you go. And then just swan out and go on the bike for an hour or whatever it is. So, yeah, if that's the case, but the reality is that that job probably isn't out there. And even if it was, I'd get bored with it because I don't have the flexibility. I don't know. But I think, yeah, for me, as a finisher on this, I think that's it. If you're looking at what it's really like to run a business, you have to enjoy it. You've got to enjoy the day-to-day as much as the thing you're striving for. Yeah, absolutely.

And I'm going to close on the same point because I just got a nice analogy here. Like, you know, if you're flying on a holiday, right, and, you know, it's like it's a couple of hours on an easy jet. What is it, like two, three hours? And you go into Ibiza for a week. You know, you will sacrifice. You know, you can have like a little shitty journey to get to that, you know, big thing. But that is not a business. It's the other way around. So if you were going to go on a, you know, like what, average business for like five, ten years possibly. I feel my way around it for like six, seven years. You know, if you're going to invest that much time in it, you know, the destination just almost fades in comparison to that. So it is then all about the journey. So, you know, in that scenario, you want to be in, you know, either, you know, a private jet or enjoying stuff. What I mean is you've got to enjoy the ride. It's not about the destination because the ride is so long. And let's face it, everybody loves a good ride, right? It's true. So, yeah, like, yeah, don't think, you can't just, you can't think of it just like just hopping on a bus because you're going to be on that bus for a very long time. So, you know, by all means, get on a bus for the first bit and then upgrade to, I don't know, maybe a taxi and then get the Uber premium or something and get a chauffeur. So, like, reward your success as you're going along. Make sure you're actually enjoying that journey because the journey is the business. That's it you're living. Like, at any point, something can come and strike you down or strike that business down and it's all over. So enjoy it. It's not about that destination. It isn't, you know, people say keep your eyes on the prize, but the prize is literally the life that you're living in that very moment.

And I think, you know, the best bit of advice, probably for more, this is exactly what I said, that is go and take a little bus holiday before you decide that you want to sit on for the rest of your life. Go and test it. Go and find out. Take a week off work. Whatever it is, go and see. It's a real idea. Not friends, not family. Is someone going to part for this? Part with some money for this? And that is a brilliant way of kind of going. Because, you know, particularly now, more so probably now than it was when you did it, it's easy to do.

It's so much easier now.

And I think, you know, that, and again, that will, it won't tell you everything about business ownership, but at least it will put you into it with a real kind of weight of belief. But it is a thing. It can be a thing.

And if you're listening to this now thinking, oh, yeah, that's great, but this doesn't apply to me for X, Y, and Z, just actually think back. And, like, are those X, Y, and Z actually reasons that, you know, you could stand there in front of me and put your hand on the Bible and swear to it? Or are they just assumptions? Because I would probably challenge that it's going to be just assumptions that you're basing that on. The amount of times that I've had, oh, yeah, that's great, but I'm already halfway through my app development, so I'm going to carry on. And it's like, no, dickhead, stop. Literally stop doing what you're doing and test this stuff first. It's the law of some, what is it, like a sunk cost, like a gambler's mentality. Oh, yeah, I've put all this in, so I'll just bet a little bit more. No, there's always a point. Stop. You can go back, and sometimes you've got to go back to go forward.

Yeah.

Go back to go forward, get on a bus. Like, what are we even talking about here? But I think that's been good. Innuendo hour. Innuendo hour. Love that. So that's it. So thank you very much, Paul. Thank you. I enjoyed that.

Let's do it again sometime. I mean, not soon, but let's say.

Not too soon, obviously. Brilliant.

Well, look, thanks for listening, guys. Do all the normal stuff, and yeah, we'll see you next time. And we'll see you next time. Thank you very much. Goodbye.

We'll be back next week for another edition of The Throb Podcast.

If you want to find out more, you can find me at paulchapmanuk.com.

And you can find me, Bertie, at bertiecord.co.uk. Thanks again. See you next week.