Spending Cash

Welcome to Throb, The Reality of Business podcast. Real business chat from real people without the shiny veneer of gurus anywhere near it.

With your hosts Bertie Cordingly and Paul Chapman and maybe some guests along the route, we'll talk about our experiences of running business, helping others run a business and sharing real stories based on real experience. Hello mate, you alright? I'm very well Paul, how are you today? I am exceptionally well, thank you very much indeed.

I'm exceptionally well also, so yes, it's another beautiful day. Welcome everyone, I hope you are very well wherever this finds you.

Me and that Bertie fellow, we're going to speak this week, we're going to be talking this week about money. But a bit more specifically, what to spend money on and what not to spend money on. Because I think it is, well I don't know, I don't think it's anything I've ever heard kind of advice given out on. I don't think it's something people talk about. I think, you know, there's always that, oh you need to make money and you know, yes you should invest and blah blah blah blah blah. But actually I don't kind of see anyone kind of talking, because I think the reality of, let's just call it, you know, the reality of business advice. There is the advice that goes on that I think is often quite unrelated to the challenges, thoughts, struggles, feelings of the business owner. Sat on his own, sat on her own, in their office, kind of wondering what to do. My first ever business purchase could not have been more pointless. Could not have been more wasteful at a time when I had no money to waste. And, you know, I thought, so I thought, you know, that's our kind of call for today. It's kind of, you know, we're going to look at kind of money and actually talk about what people should be spending money on and why. What people shouldn't be spending money on and why. And actually probably share some of our howlers. And indeed, you know, our good investments too. But yeah, so come on, you with your kind of business head on, mate. What should people be spending their money on? Where should their thought process start on this?

Yeah, I think it's, I mean, I'm a tight bastard. So it's very, you know, this resonates really well with me. But I think that's a really good mindset to have with business. I think if we just step back, I think there's a common misconception that to start a business, you need to have a shit ton of cash, right? And of course, depending on the business, you do. But there is, there's lots of things that you can do without cash. And that's really what I want to go into as part of this subject. So yeah, stuff that you should be spending on, stuff that you shouldn't, where should we start? Yeah. Well, do you know what?

We kind of have to say it's sort of our world, but advice. I would heartily recommend people pay for advice. And I just didn't necessarily, I'm not necessarily talking specifics, although I suppose I am. But this is one of the realities of running a business is that we're all most often far too close to our business. Depending on kind of where you are and what you do, that can and should be, you know, a professional advisor. But also joining groups of people that sometimes come with a price tag. But, you know, I think you and I have both done these, have set up groups of people where there isn't a price tag. They're just kind of like minds. You know, that would be something that would be right at the top of my list. To have someone, someone that knows a bit about business, but doesn't necessarily know about your business or your industry. Someone that can actually cast their eye, look at your business and offer some thoughts, offer some advice, offer some feedback. You know, that outside pair of eyes is so, so useful.

Yeah, that's a really good point. I think advice. Now, whether that comes into paid advice, but what I think where my stance on this is, is actually finding something, someone specific that can help with your problem. And if you have to pay for that, then absolutely pay for it. Do not stimp on that. Like, what I try and do now is I try and be like the business coach, the business mentor that I would have needed, that I would have wanted at the time when, you know, I've had businesses and run them. Because I did take a lot of advice because the advice was free. And it wasn't necessarily that because it was free, it was bad. It actually wasn't that relevant to the stuff that I was trying to do. So because it was free, I would take the advice and I would, you know, speak to different advisors and free business advisors and all the other things out there. And that was great. You know, there's some really good support things, but I did it because it was free, not because it was the right person. And they didn't understand my business. And actually then, you know, made some, a few decisions that probably weren't right for the business based on that advice. And again, it's nothing bad about them. It's just, it wasn't the right person. So I think if you can find that right person, you can find them free. Like if you happen to know somebody that is, is really into, you know, the space that you're going in or has run businesses before. And there's a big difference. I think if somebody's been there and done it to somebody that has read a book on it, right? Because there's a lot more to it than just knowledge. You need someone that's walk the walk. So I think finding that person and if you need to pay for it, absolutely pay for it because that will pay dividends. I don't want this to sound like a kitchen, any way, shape or form. But it's interesting because the amount of people that I have either spoke to or worked with, because I love this early stage. And it's all about working on the right stuff at the right time. The amount of people that have said to me, I wish I'd have met you at the beginning. I wish I'd have met you a year ago. So that's what I mean. I'm not saying go and hire me, but go and find somebody that knows your business. And, yeah, that can make a huge, a huge difference.

I think there are levels of advice here. You know, that's something again, again, similarly, this is the Bertie and Paul sales pitch hour, guys. Enjoy it. That's not really. I mean, yes, of course, you know, find that a thing. But, you know, the reality are sometimes there isn't money to spend on a Bertie or a Paul or whatever it is. OK, but there are levels of it. A, another business owner, somebody, anyone that has been in business, is in business, can help you. Seek out that. So you can go and buy that advice or you can go and take someone for a coffee. Or you can go and put yourself in a situation where you could meet that person. You know, and this, you know, becomes a, you know, again, we've all had my kind of thoughts on, you know, the majority of networking. But that's a legitimate spend in this to go and put yourself in that position. The point we're kind of getting to here, every other business owner can help you in some way, even if that is, well, I just don't believe the word they said, I'm not going to do that. You know, even if they've made that mistake, even if, you know, and it's, you know, it's not, it's not necessarily about kind of learning more. It's about learning from their experience because everyone will have done what you're trying to do or is trying to do it. We'll have a different ways of looking at it. And I think, you know, that is a, it is a massively valuable thing. I think, you know, you know, it is worth, it is worth paying for. And I think, you know, kind of, I've done this, I've paid for it. A similar version of this is to put my, is to pay to be in places where there are lots of these people. And I spent, you know, a lot of time across conferences in America and learning from some of the best direct marketers in the world over there. And that's, you know, these are, you know, kind of reasonable spends of money, particularly at the time, you know, but the learning and the, you know, being in that space is massive. Not just to learn from people like kind of Ryan Dice, Dan Kennedy, Frank Kern, all those kind of guys there. And there's loads that can be taken from that, although it's very different there. There's loads we learned from it. But the other people in the room, I've made kind of lifelong contacts, people that, you know, we are, because we are kind of of like mind, we are kind of, we do sort of share information and kind of, you know, and I think it's, it's that kind of thing. I think, you know, I suppose the, the, the umbrella term for it is look, pay for advice, but think about all the different places that advice could come from.

I think that's a, I think that's a really good point. I think what you just made me think about there is that, yeah, all of those names and stuff, you know, really good in particular fields. And I think it's very easy sometimes to look at those and think, oh, actually, I want to go and replicate that business model exactly. But it's all about taking the right bits that then apply for your business. So there might be someone who's really good at creating landing pages, someone that's really good in email marketing. So, you know, you can learn those specific things, but it's, yeah, then taking those things, applying them to your business and testing them out to actually see whether they, they work or not. So, yeah, that's a really important thing to pay for. But I think do the research first. And I hate that term now. I think it's, it just reminds me of people in the comment section in Facebook going on about not wearing masks and vaccine. Do your own research. Oh, fuck off. Yeah.

But I think, you know, the interesting thing is it's not particularly well hidden. Success isn't particularly well hidden. And I think what's also interesting is most business people are actually reasonable folks. Not everyone. There's a lot of knobs out there. We probably know most of them. Yeah, there are a lot. Maybe we should do some names. Realistically. Name the knob. If you are, I mean, again, I don't know. If you're an accountant, go and find, and again, forgive me, but this is a bit kind of, kind of base level, but go and find the accountants with bigger properties, bigger cars, going on longer holidays, and go and ask if you can take them for a coffee. You know, I mean, again, it's a daft example, but again, it's that whole cliche, success leads clues. You know, there are loads of people. It happened to me. I mean, I've had kind of, I mean, a student ages ago, I don't know where he found me. He kind of seemed to think I was kind of some big deal. And he just rang, you know, out the blue and said, can I take you for a beer? And I'm like, yeah, of course. You know, I mean, that's an ego massage thing, but, you know, yeah, of course. And then most people have to do this. Interestingly, about five years later, having not heard from him pretty much after kind of like the wind down from the beer, out the blue, he came again. Paul, I've got this startup. Can I come pay some money for some marketing help? Well, yeah. But I think, you know, it's getting that advice. I suppose, you know, this, I suppose while we're here, this advice probably goes into expertise section as well. So, you know, don't do your own books. Don't, you know, kind of consider whether you need to build your own website, all those kinds of things. I'm not saying you do or you don't, but, you know, as part of that advice, I think kind of things that free up your time and headspace, I think probably fall under a similar umbrella.

Yeah, I think so. And I think this is, you know, this is probably one for debate. Maybe we have slightly different views on this or maybe they're the same. But I think outsourcing and automation and building processes is amazing. Like you can't scale a business without it. Equally, though, I think there's a lot of times that you need to do this stuff yourself to understand it. Now, I'm not saying do everything. Bookkeeping, perfect example. As in, you know, like I will never go near my books at all because I know it takes me a ridiculous amount of time and I'm going to fuck it up, basically. Like it's always going to be a mess. So, you know, that's something that I know from experience. But I did try it, you know, did try and do it and then learned from that. There is this and it all depends. Sometimes, say if you've come from a maybe you've built a startup before and this is sort of stuff that I've done myself. So I can speak from experience. Maybe you've had a startup before and then maybe you've started another and it's almost like I'm too good for this stuff. I'm going to outsource that bit straight away. Sometimes by doing that and especially in sales and marketing, for example, or product development or building a website, you can actually miss that first step of connecting with customers by actually picking up the phone and speaking customers and doing things that don't scale before you try and start to scale it. So I think, yes, absolutely outsource things that you know that you're not good at and are going to be a huge waste of time. But equally, the cost of your time means fuck all if you're not bringing any money in. And it's just like if you're outsourcing for outsourcing sake, just because you don't want to do it. Sometimes you've got to do those difficult things and learn from them. And I've got some really good examples of where and especially like with marketing, for example, like with stuff like Facebook ads and things like that, like it's not rocket science, right, to actually physically put those ads together. And it's you can learn a lot yourself by doing those things. So, you know, I was all I would always advise that people try it and get some learnings from it. Don't do a ridiculous budget. You know, just try something that's proportionate and understand that customer journey and actually figure out where people are dropping off, etc. And try and get as much of that learning yourself, because then that's something that you can then actually have a conversation with someone that really understands that. But the conversation is going to be much more productive because you can say what you've tried, what works, what doesn't work. And when you're then getting that feedback from somebody who's saying about, you know, the conversion rates, etc. You understand it. You understand what's going off. So you can then add value. I had no idea about marketing, coding, anything like that. I still can't code now, but I have a very good understanding of websites and how they work and SEO and all that sort of stuff. I don't go ahead and do it. But the fact that I have done it and learned that stuff has really put me in good stead now. So I think you can't. It's important to learn it, but equally understand the point where you hand that over. If it's taking up too much of your time, if you're spending all day and night fiddling on a website when actually you need to be ringing up customers, that's the point you need to flip. But that's a process in itself.

Yeah, I think I was, you know, for people that are kind of kind of tight or indeed kind of nervous spenders, you know, I get that. I get when you're in business, you kind of hold on to the money and actually paying for stuff that you could do yourself is always quite an uncomfortable or kind of a nervous thing. I always kind of approach these things as a challenge. So I can remember when I first decided I wanted to get a VA because I wanted someone I was happy to write the emails, but I wanted someone to dick about with the CRM and get the stuff out. And I found a kind of brilliant lady, you know, and it was great. But, you know, at the time I'm spending some money. I could do this myself. And it's like, well, OK, challenge one is I'm going to pay her X hundred quid. Who knows? Whatever it is. That's, you know, I believe that's saving me these four hours, which is how I've come to this conversation. I've got four hours every week to make one hundred and ten quid. It was a bit of a weird way of thinking about it. And probably.

I think it's a great way of thinking about it. It really. That's a really good example, though, Paul. Yeah.

But it really helped me because, again, at some level it was daft that I would put forward, you know, kind of rather than almost build the business proper. I put four hours into it. So actually I could almost prove to myself that it was there. And I think that's the kind of thing, you know, any investment in this kind of stuff should make you more money, either immediately or in a medium run, as it were, because it frees your time up to do it. But it was that I mean, less so now. But at the time when the money was kind of, you know, kind of smaller, you know, I just had to make that correlation between the two that, you know, right, that's it. I've got to do this now. Yeah.

And that is perfect example. And that does. I think we are saying the same thing. So in your example there, you know, you're saving that for that four out of 120 pounds, essentially, you can make back up through, you know, then you have that time to go and spend with an extra client, client, for example. Perfect. Absolutely. All for that. What I was talking about when I was looking at the other sense is when someone's saying that, but they they don't have the clients then to get that. So that's what I mean by, you know, that your time means shit. It's like, OK, yeah, but I could be spending four hours working with clients. OK, I'm sure you could. Do you have any fucking clients you can go and spend that time with?

No.

OK, work on getting some clients, then have some let's have a conversation about how valuable your time is, because right now there's a big disparity between what you say you're worth and what you're actually worth. And that and I think that's the difference. And that's sometimes what people get confused with. And especially if you've done something before, like a previous business, or maybe you've come out of a high paying job and you're like, well, actually, I'm worth things per hour. So I want to make sure that that's what I'm charging. OK, well, you still start. It's baby steps, right? You'll get there, but you can't miss out that. You can't just jump straight into that level. You're going to miss out too much learning from that point. And it's not a solid foundation to build on.

Yeah, I think so. I think it is. It's like anything. There's got to be a bit of discipline with the spend, isn't it? And again, you know, it's you're dead right. People that will just get rid of stuff that they don't want to do, which is perfectly reasonable. But do it for a reason. You know, kind of it's that don't kid yourself thing. And again, it's back to kind of me ranting at network. And I, you know, I have issues, concerns that people that go into the same networking room with the same 20 people and talk about the same things for a year at a time. And, you know, I'm sure it's that it's that kind of look. But we I mean, we I think we spoke about it. It's kind of previous on a previous episode. We got like that, that brutal honesty with yourself, that real kind of clarity of look. What is it? What am I trying to achieve? What's that? And that kind of is what I'm doing helping to that. If not, you know, it's difficult decisions. Yes, I love doing this. But actually, because then that's the other thing. There's a lot of people that actually do stuff that they really enjoy that they shouldn't be doing. You know, it's not just getting rid of stuff they hate. People really enjoy, I don't know, building their website or whatever it is.

Yeah.

But it's not it's not the right. It reminds me of I didn't want to descend into books. But the one thing, Gary Keller. And that's if you read that, that's a really one of those kind of head smacker book to effect that you can kind of get it from the first chapter. But that, you know, what is the thing that you do in your business that only you can do and makes the biggest difference? Spend all your time doing that, you know, because it may well be that actually the best thing you can do is design your site because you can do that. Well, that's fine. It's not going to make the business survive, sustain, grow. Get, you know, and again, I'm not a big fan of outsourcing kind of the sales as a business owner like that in that kind of format. But, you know, it is, you know, what's the stuff that makes you the money that you can do? Do that and kind of pay in whatever format that is to kind of get the other stuff out there.

That's that's exactly the whole thing. But you don't have to rush to do that. A lot of people and I think this comes into like the question we're asking at the beginning, you know, what do you and what don't you spend the money on? I think a lot of people try and solve problems before they've got them.

And, you know, oh, you know, if I do this, I'm going to need a better computer. I'm going to need a bigger desk. I'm going to need an office. It's like, well, you know, just hold your horses a minute. Let's just think about, you know, where actually are you now? I'm going to need a fancy camera to do some recordings. I want to do social media. These are all things that I've done. I'm going to import all these things thinking. But these problems haven't necessarily happened yet. And it's far better to go with what you've got and almost work to your limits. And then once you hit, I call it a blocker when I work with people. It's like once you hit that blocker, when you're coming to me and saying, look, Bertie, I can't do this anymore. Like I'm doing all myself, whatever. And I'm pulling my hair out. It's like, great, fantastic. Now we can fix that problem because we know it's a problem. Rather than, oh, I'm going to go and build a website and a fancy booking system. So I don't have to deal with emails and calls and stuff like that. And it's all going to be staking. It's all going to be automated. Great. How many clients have you got? None. Fuck that. Focus on getting some clients first to the point that you're at breaking point. Then solve that problem. And that is a common, common, common. I mean, I wouldn't even say it's a mistake. It's almost the way that we're programmed to think. It's like, you know, if you want to launch a website, you'd go ahead and build that entire website. That's essentially what you think. But you'd be building that without any data. Whereas you can just go and build the front end page of that website, drive some traffic to it. And if people then want to buy, then you can solve that problem at that point. Almost like, think of it like the Wizard of Oz kind of thing. It all looks fantastic on the front end and polished and finished. But when the order comes through, it's just coming through as an email to your phone. It's like, fuck now, what do we do? Right. Okay. Get to the garage. Start packing your stuff. Put it together. Manually send an email back to that customer. You've then got a full e-commerce website. As far as the customer is concerned, it's completely slick. But it's cost you peanuts to do. You can go out of there and market it as if it's real. And, you know, these are the things that you, you know, like spend money on making it look as professional as you can at the front. But be running around like a blue-ass fly on the back end until you get those orders. Because if you get in one order a day, you can manage that. If you put that site live and you suddenly get a thousand orders, you're like, fucking hell, I should have built the automated system. It's like, oh, great. Now you can go and build it. Get some extra people in at the beginning to deal with that. Just Eat, when I was there, had that strategy. Like all of their money, time, resource were going into sales, marketing, driving people to the front end of the website. And there's a really, like, when I sold my business to Just Eat, I remember like looking around their call center. They had a lot of call center staff. Half of their systems were still written in Danish at the time. So, like, you know, these are things that, you know, should and could have been fixed from my point of view. So why aren't you fixing them? But it was working and they were concentrating on still, you know, building the business and getting the land grab and stuff. There was a person that was employed. Their entire job was literally to press a resend button when the orders hadn't gone through to the restaurant. That is literally what they did. It's something that could have been, you know, quite easily fixed, but tech resource were finite. And there was much more important things to be spending time on. It doesn't have to be perfect on the back end. Just, you know, make sure the front works. You're providing a really good experience to a customer. Yeah, nice, man.

And I think, you know, again, it comes back to a bit of thought, isn't it? You know, as soon as you say that out loud, you think, oh, God, yeah, it needs, it only needs to look good for the customer. Their journey needs to be good. You know, if I'm then on my knees under a desk, that's fine until I've got thousands of things coming in. At that point, I can invest into it. So that's...

You have to be on your knees under a desk. You know, at a desk is absolutely fine. I don't know what business you're doing.

My desk, my rules.

So I suppose that makes... I suppose that's kind of the bit more talked about part of something that isn't talked about. Kind of a couple of things that I think are really worth people spending on, or at least kind of equating that spend to, that don't get talked about. You know, things like pay to be where your customers are.

Yeah.

Now, you know, and again, this is one that takes kind of real thought in here. And the fact that, you know, back in when we could, I remember a guy, and I forgot his name now. It doesn't matter. He would only ever travel first class because the people he wanted to meet also travels first class. You know, and it's, you know, I think this is, you know, for people to listen to this, kind of take that concept. Where are your perfect ideal customers? How do you kind of get into? How do you pay? And, you know, kind of inverted comms or not to get into there. And I think, you know, I've seen this so many times with people and, you know, back to networking, forgive me. I'm really not a networking basher. But so many people that are kind of being in the cheapest networking and telling me they want to find the CEOs of large companies. I'm like, well, they're not here. You know, and, but they will be somewhere. They will hang out somewhere. They will be in some world. They will be in some restaurants. They'll be whatever it is. Old school golf clubs. Who knows? But, you know, that paying to be where your customers are and where the right customers are, I think is massively valuable. And I think it's something that people kind of don't think about. You know, the amount of times that I've kind of, I've gone to things and met people that I want to meet there. And you think, well, actually, look, yeah. And I couldn't have got this from, you know, ABC networking in the middle of Nottingham. And there's nothing wrong with ABC networking in the middle of Nottingham. But the people that I want aren't there. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

And, you know, this is, this is the thing I've talked about all day. I think a lot of the time it's about, you know, whatever you're doing, you know, in that kind of sense has to be measured. And you have to hold yourself or someone has to help, you know, hold you accountable. And if you've come from like a corporate job, you used to be held accountable, right? But when you work for yourself, you're not. Things like networking meetings are a great example. You know, if you're just going and just showing up and talking to the same people all the time and coming back there. I'm not saying you should go to a networking meeting and expect to get clients or customers each time. That's the wrong way of looking at it. It is all about building relationships. Yes, I agree. But if you're going to that networking meeting and you're thinking that people like at least question, okay, I might not have got any meetings with those people. But they are here. They're here somewhere. And I just haven't found them. There's a very big difference to almost just showing up and then just having a laugh with your mates, which we've all done.

Right.

And then it's like, well, I've got no business from that. It's like, well, of course you have a dickhead because there's no one there that's actually your customers don't exist. So in that room. So that's a really good point. I think you're making there.

As a practical kind of example of that, you know, I know it's kind of like being first class, et cetera, et cetera, but it's a thought process. I love that, by the way. I think to a guy. Yeah.

Like, you know, if you're looking for CEOs and stuff like that, you know, commuting, where else are they going to be? First class, maybe. Get a first class travel car. Just sit on there all day. Get the free bacon butters. Get up. Hello.

Kind of a slightly more perhaps practical. I can think of a guy. He sold really good end, well, he wanted to be and was but wanted to be a really kind of high-end web developer. Yeah. And that was his thing. So let's just say it's, I don't know, 10 grand a site, which I, you know, I've no idea whether that, where that sits and thing, but it's probably kind of higher, you know, higher there. He used to spend his time paying to go to the highest end mastermind groups.

Okay.

And this is really, really smart because no one kind of has a, goes to a mastermind group unless they want their business to move forwards. We know now kind of integrals for any kind of business development is an online presence. And also he knows if these people are spending three grand a month on a mastermind, you know, days meeting, so three grand a day on a meeting, they're not going to bulk at 10 grand for a website. Yeah.

If you go to, you know, if you go to Waitrose, you're not going to walk around there complaining about the price of a tin of beans, are you? It's like, you're in there, you know exactly what you're getting. It's yeah. It's a, yeah. Being in the place where your, your, your customers are and yeah, where they can spend that money is really, really good advice, Paul. I like that. Yeah.

Again, it takes a bit of thought and it's not always easy because, you know, these quite often, these people don't hang out in big groups with big signs on, but this is where, you know, the kind of level of thoughting, you know, a web guy, look, where are they? What else? I think, I think, you know, that's something that people don't, don't kind of consider when they think about kind of spend and because that's a legitimate marketing budget. I mean, it's great for him because it's, it's double because he learns a load of stuff and he's in the, he's shaking hands and sitting down every month with people that he can help. And I think kind of the other one just kind of slightly more left field is I think people, it's important for business owners, particularly to pay for nice stuff for themselves. And I mean this in terms of a kind of like an acknowledgement of your success. It can be a pretty kind of lonely place. It can be a pretty, I don't know how you say it, an unsuccessful. I mean, I've gone through, you know, most of kind of business life kind of thinking, and I'm not saying I'm not, but you almost feel unsuccessful because even when you win, oh, well, you've already done that. You've got the next thing, your next thing, next thing. And I think it is so both powerful in terms of helping go further, but good for, you know, yourself that actually you spend some time celebrating these wins. And I don't say treating yourself, that makes it sound a bit flippant, but you know, not.

I don't think it does sound flippant. I think you're like when I work with people, like when people have like got their first customer, their first five customers, like I'm like, okay, getting the champagne out then. It's like, oh, you know, let's wait a little bit. I'm like, no, it's a success, like celebrate it, you know, whether it's champagne, fizzy water, whatever, you know, you want to do, but acknowledge actually what you've done. You don't have to go out and buy a new Ferrari or anything like that, you know, and just go absolutely crazy. But yeah, celebrating that success and actually saying, you know, I've done this. This is good. It's really important. So, yeah, I like that.

So, I mean, what if we look on the other side of stuff there? What shouldn't people be spending their money on? And I know that's kind of a blanket thing, but it's what things have we seen that you go, or indeed, what have we done that we shouldn't be spending some money on?

Yeah, I think there's a lot of things out there where people look for a silver bullet, essentially. And, you know, depending on what industry and what your background is, you can spend and you can very easily be taken in by something that, you know, someone might be very good at. Like, let me give you an example. If you are, and I'd be interested to know your thoughts on this. So, if you've just got a startup and you've just got, you know, a relatively new idea, you could go out and pay for, you know, like a 50 quid logo, for example. Or you could go to somewhere and get like, spend 30 grand plus on a, you know, a full on brand and stuff like that. But I think, you know, regardless of those two options, it isn't that brand as such that is going to get you the business. It's how you then execute and get those customers and things like that. And at the very early stage, you'll be attracting innovators and early adopters. And, you know, it's people like that are much more forgiving. If your product or service genuinely solves a problem, genuinely solves a problem, there's a market out there in any market. It's only a small percentage, up to like sort of 15% of a market of people that will be willing to try that service. And they will be forgiving and they will give you feedback and stuff like that.

Expensive branding and stuff like that. And again, there's always examples to this, but I'm talking, I'm talking very general. It's a thing not necessarily to invest in at that stage, like test it out first, get something that will do. It can always be changed later. And that can be like the amount of people that have come to me with a business idea and still not launched it because they don't know what to call it. It's like, but they've got like five names. I'm like, look, okay, close your eyes, write them down, pick one of those, launch it with that. If it's successful, change it in six months time. If you find that brand and, you know, that's, your big brands, you know, have done that in the past. It's not a, it's a normal thing, but not doing something because you think that, you know, you have to have the best equipment or you have to have an office. I mean, now, especially after all the stuff that we've just, you know, working from home and everything in the last sort of 12 months, depending when you're listening. You know, the world has changed. You literally, you don't even need a computer, just a phone now. You could run a business from a phone. So yeah, spending, like just question everything that you need. Like, do you really need it? Do you need to be spending money on that website? Or can I just use something and throw up a landing page and almost have a contact card page, which is going to cost me from nothing to like 20 quid a year or something and do that. And generally you'll find that you don't need all of this stuff. You don't need a website. You don't need to have a huge social media following. What you need is a little bit of determination and the ability to try things and fail. Contact, reach out to people and treat people like people. So when I say reach out, I'm not talking about sending 300 cold emails all with the same subject. I'm saying, if I'm contacting you, Paul, it's like, hi, Paul. You know, I was at your, I saw that you've run these events. Love your podcast that you do with Bertie. Like, you know, talk to you like a person. You're going to pay attention to that rather than, yeah, you know, can you give me some free marketing services or whatever?

I think that's really interesting. And I think, you know, just to be really, really clear on this, there is massive value in branding. And I know some really good, really good kind of intelligent branding guys that make a huge difference. And it's the same with websites. The reality, however, for most businesses at that point of startup, there is nothing more important than doing stuff, learning stuff. And at which point, you know, no one cares about your logo. You know, Fiverr is brilliant. You know, I think most of the businesses I've started have started with a Fiverr logo. You know, and for those people that don't know Fiverr, F-I-V-E, double R, you get anything from, you know, logos to someone will sing you a birthday song, juggling chainsaws, whatever it is. So, you know, it's simply, I guess it's barriers to activity, not barriers to entry, it's barriers to activity. And, you know, the reality is kind of no one cares. At that early age, no one cares about your name, no one cares. You know, and yes, we'll be proved brilliantly wrong by great companies that have started and spent a load of money and have gone on to that.

Brilliant.

And the reality is, particularly in the kind of the people that probably kind of listen to this, that's the exception. It's not the rule. And actually, there are so many good enough things that will do it and get it and start it. And I think, you know, it's saying that these are some things, you know, for me as well, you know, there are lots of people that probably don't need their first website to be a 20 grand website. You know, there are plenty of, you know, 100 quid. I don't know what we've got now, kind of Wix, whatever stuff. Yeah, there's so many options out there.

And it's getting so easy. It's just, it's changed so much. It's, yes, you're right. You know, 100 pound website can do, and buying off the shelf stuff now, we didn't have that luxury 10 years ago.

And that's not said it's not worth the spend. And there are plenty of businesses that actually, you need to get your brand sorted. You know, you've been doing it now for a long time. You've got it. It's so messy. You can actually do that. And that's a really, really valuable spend. But I think a lot of it is just not there. And it's like, kind of, you know, unnecessary tech. You know, I think that's, you know, a thing that people spend a lot of money on. And I think a really interesting one for me is bad, under the bad spend side of this, is kind of expansion for the sake of it. But, you know, people spending, and again, I'm sure we've shared this before, I can think of kind of multiple people that actually earned more, were happier, were less stressed, on their own, doing what they did, but decided they wanted a bigger business. So, bought offices, bought staff, bought extra computers, bought all the, you know, all the extra NI contributions, all the pensions, da-da-da-da-da, you know, that stuff. And actually, it has made no kind of meaningful kind of impact to their life. And I think, you know, I put that, I don't know if that's how that works really, but that, for me, would be under that bad spend territory.

Yeah, I think you're right. It's almost, yeah, it becomes like an ego thing. Yeah, there's an expansion for expansion's sake, isn't there? It's actually, is it like, a lot of this comes down to knowing and understanding what your goals are. Like, what actually are you chasing? Why are you doing this? Is it because you're trying to build a better business than your mate that you went to school with that you don't even fucking like anymore? And, you know, he employs 100 people, so you need to employ 200 people. Sounds ridiculous. People do it, you know, it becomes this, people have this silent war with other people and nobody actually gives a fuck, you know, about that. So, yeah, there's a lot of that that goes on. So, I think understanding what your goals are and working towards them and constantly questioning, you know, and I'm talking like day by day, week by week, is the stuff that I'm working on today, is the stuff that I'm working on right now working towards my goals? A lot of people are doing things for the wrong reasons and working on the wrong stuff, essentially. So, it's not just wasting money, it's wasting time. And time, you know, it's a finite resource.

And I think that, yeah, those emotional dollars, for want of a better phrase as well, that's, you know, that's the spend that people kind of know. You know, the heartache and the stress of employing someone as opposed to, you know, what do you want to spend your time doing? Do you want to spend your time designing websites or do you want to spend your time managing someone to design a website? And it is. What's your skill set? I think it's there. So, anyway, so to close it out then, give us your best and worst spends.

I mean, I'm an Apple, I wouldn't say sheep, but I'm definitely like an Apple whore. It's much less now. So, you know, new computer, new iPad, new phone, like, yeah, I need that. I don't actually need it. And actually, you know, my phone now is probably, it's, I didn't upgrade last year, which was a big, you know, a big step for me. But interestingly, when I've been on like startup accelerating stuff and I've turned up there with the new laptop that I've got there. And I'm looking around and people have got like 10 year old laptops, you know, and running highly successful businesses from them. You don't need all this new fancy shit. Nobody looks at you and think, oh, he's really successful because he's got a laptop. Like the people that know are working from stuff that's actually like, they don't want to get rid of it because it's that they're so used to it. The keys, the numbers have run off, the letters have rubbed off the keys, et cetera, you know, all that sort of stuff. So you don't need to prove anything to anyone. If you've got computers, phones, cameras, whatever that work, don't. I've spent a lot of money on equipment before I've actually needed it. So I've gone out and bought cameras, podcast equipment, all that sort of stuff and then not done anything. Whereas actually, you just, you just don't need to buy it.

This laptop I'm on now, I would say this is 15 years old. And I'm happy to buy a new one when this stops. I just can't, I can't see any reason for it. But, you know, it's probably a collector's item now. It's probably worth a fortune.

So, yeah, I think things like that, just question, you know, whether you need it. And, yeah, even, you know, the big CEOs and things like that, you know, running their own companies. They spend the money on the stuff that, you know, that makes them happy. For me, that happened to be new phones and computers and things like that. Whereas now, even I'm moving away from that. I'm much more interested in experiences and having fun, et cetera.

So can you put your finger on the best single investment? I mean, that's a bit of a stab, but.

The best investment, I think, has always been, I think in a business context, it's been people. And it's been when I needed them. So, you know, not necessarily at breaking point, but, you know, I recognized very quickly that there was a huge customer service overhead that I was having to run. One, I was doing a lot of manual data entry. And that's the point then to bring in somebody to then do those jobs, which freed me up to actually go and do stuff that I was good at, which was going out and making sales.

Yeah, I think, you know, for me, the single best thing I've ever put money into is, you know, kind of what I kind of call these mastermind groups. Just I can't, I just can't underplay the value of sitting around the table with like-minded people. Just, yeah. Honestly, it's, it has saved, it's, well, it's made me thousands, but it saved me thousands in mistakes, in speeding processes up. And, you know, it's, you know, that, that would be right at the top of my list. I think, you know, trips to the US, I think, you know, that was also kind of a really valuable thing. But I think, yeah, spending time with the people has been the thing. And I think without question, my worst or my most pointless purchase was a, the first thing I ever bought in business ever. It was a flip cam. I don't know if you remember flip cam. It was like a little video kind of camera thing. And you. I don't even have a do.

You're looking around for it now, aren't you?

Yeah, well, it will be here somewhere. But yes, it's just, I mean, this is because this is probably before video on phones was quite as good as it was. This was a high definition camera. And I bought it with the, with the specific intention of using it to capture testimonials. Because I'd learned a huge amount about how valuable testimonials are, how powerful they are. So I'm like, well, that's it. I'm going to buy a flip cam. And it was great because it, yeah, flip out USB, stick it straight in. Oh, it was amazing. The only thing I kind of hadn't considered is at that point, I had no customers. I had no clue how to get customers. I hadn't got anything. And I just kind of marvel. And I can, it's a useful story because I bet people listen to this have done or are about to do the same thing. I kind of marvel that I was buying something to record the feedback from people that I didn't know had never had. I mean, I don't know. It's probably only 100 quid. I don't know. But, you know, at the time, that was ludicrous. But it just wasn't the right thing to do. Yeah.

Yeah, I get that. A common mistake that I've made in the past is overbuying on stuff because there'll be a discount.

Right.

So let's just say, you know, I'm going to go and get some flyers done or maybe some boxes to put a product in or something. It might be, I don't know, 500 quid for... It's all about the price breaks, isn't it, with printing stuff, et cetera. You know, and, you know, I've got huge amounts of stocks of this stuff from previous businesses. And it's like, okay, it's 500 quid for 100, but I can get 1,000 for a grand. So, of course, you know, I'm going to buy that. Now, that's okay if you can do that and you can recognize what that... If you've got... If you're going to use those things. But if you're buying it still on a whim and you haven't got that, then it's not really cost effective. So I think in that scenario, better to not get the most value from it. And then, actually, if that stuff works, if that printed material actually then brings you the business in, then you know that you can go and get it a lot cheaper in the future. So sometimes it's okay to technically lose money on those individual parts because you're seeing that as an experiment more. So spend less, test it, and then you know that you can scale it by actually getting the correct amount. So, yeah, I've got a lot of over-printed, over-ordered stuff.

And I think on that, kind of like my final parting shot on kind of angry Paul, bad spends, people that only print one side of a flyer because it saves them a couple of quick. Honestly, nothing, nothing winds me up more than that. Because, you know, you've saved yourself three pence to send someone something where there's only information on one side. Oh, I didn't know what to put on the other side. Put some testimonials. Put some cases on it. I don't care. Put a picture of your fucking face on it. Put something on the other side of the flyers. I feel a bit better now. Anyway, so, parting shot for me is sort of something that you said about a couple of minutes ago is actually think really deeply about kind of any spend.

I suppose it's actually before that. What does your business need to move forward? Is there a way of facilitating that? And I suppose, you know, kind of good spend, bad spend, how to spot the difference. Is this thing going to meaningfully help your business move forward as it is now? If it is, I would suggest going to do some research on that. If not, put it on the list, park it for another day. Yeah.

I mean, yeah, yeah, that's exactly it. I mean, you know, I run workshops and everything on all of this, on all this type of stuff. And there's a lot more. I'm not holding back on information. There's just too much to get into here. But essentially, that's it. Understanding what you need to be working on right now and doubling down on that. Sounds obvious. But so, for example, if you are there, you know, like, oh, great, I need a website. And you're building that website. And you're going through all the stages of the checkout. And what, when they get to the checkout, do I need these different payment options? What about delivery? And all this sort of stuff. Yet nobody's even got that far. You don't need to worry about that part yet. So it's actually, what do I need in my business right now? And this is normally where it starts to get uncomfortable for people. Because generally, it's customers. How can I get customers? Right. Well, I've got to show up at network meetings. I've got to do a little bit of outreach on LinkedIn. I've got to go and comment on people's posts and all that sort of stuff. I don't like doing that. I'll go back to the company. I like building websites. It's the wrong thing to do. So sometimes, and this is where the advice could be. That's where I would be looking at someone and what they're doing and saying, is that the most efficient issue of time today? And they will generally go, no, Bertie, no. What do you need to do? I need to be contacting customers, don't I? Yes, you do. Go ahead and do it. And sometimes it just needs that bit of tough love. And that wasn't really hard stuff. That was very, you know, just a little bit of coaching then to come to the decision. But that's it. So, you know, I'm not saying that, you know, you have to be going and paying for that. But you can go and question yourself now. If you can do that yourself and that's a discipline and you're getting to the end of the day thinking, I've really moved the needle on the stuff that I need to do today.

Great.

If you're finishing days and feeling unfulfilled and it's almost just Groundhog Day and you're not moving forward, go and find somebody that can help you with it. And just get that external pair of eyes to look at it because you might just be swimming upstream. And that's okay for a week or two. But if you've been doing that for years, so much time could be wasted. The process is eye-opening. Yeah.

And that, you know, that, that go and find that outside pair of eyes. That may well be an expert and go and pay them, but it could also be just a cup of coffee with someone and ask for some help. Yeah. Brilliant. Well, look, mate, I enjoyed that. Thank you very much. Thanks for listening. Don't forget to hit all the usual buttons, subscribe, like, share, tell your friends, write to your grandma and plaster it on the side of your house. And we'll be back next week with another edition of Throb, the reality of business podcast. Yes, we will.

Thank you very much, Paul. It's been a pleasure seeing you again today.

I know.

So modest. Take care. Goodbye. Cheers. Bye.

We'll be back next week for another edition of the Throb podcast.

If you want to find out more, you can find me at paulchapmanuk.com.

And you can find me, Bertie, at bertiecord.co.uk. Thanks again. See you next week. Bye.

Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.