£6k in 20 minutes and where your perfect customers are really hiding

Welcome to Throb, The Reality of Business podcast. Real business chat from real people without the shiny veneer of gurus anywhere near it.

With your hosts Bertie Cordingly and Paul Chapman and maybe some guests along the route, we'll talk about our experiences of running a business, helping others run a business and sharing real stories based on real experience.

Good morning, Paul.

Good morning, everyone. Are you alright?

Hello. Good day. Hello. Whatever we're saying. It is the morning, isn't it?

I think so. Yeah, yeah. It's good. It's good. It's another gorgeous day here at Cordingly Towers.

Yeah, that's it. Back in the studio live. Recording another episode. Why do we sound so defeated?

I think that sounds... Another day. That sounds a bit like a 1950s D.I.M. Private Inspector. Cordingly Towers. Cordingly Towers, yeah. Another mystery solved.

I think that's what I might change the name of the house.

I wish I had to be with you posh. I've got... This tells you everything you need to know, Lister. I am here with a pad and a pen. And Bertie is there with an iPad and a fancy digital pen.

It's an Apple Pencil.

An Apple Pencil.

You need to know the terminology of these things. I really don't.

Good. How are you though, mate? You good?

I'm very well. A little bit tired, a little bit hungover. Oh dear. Oh dear. But that's normal. Yeah.

Welcome to Monday.

Welcome to Monday indeed. Yeah, big weekend. But hey-ho, we're here and we're back. Yes, it's a nice easy day of recording today.

Tremendous. Tremendous.

Come on then, Paul. You must have some stories. I can't tell any of mine because they're not safe.

For work. I don't think we should discuss your weekend. I was going to start with interestingly. Then I worked out I might be playing a little fast and loose with the word interestingly. Two things to come back on. One very short. I did get an email. That's what she said. Here we go. I did get an email from a built-on company saying, you've not bought from us. Shut up. Clearly, they listened to the podcast. Clearly, without question, they listened and thought, we have dropped a massive meaty ball here. So that was good. And I bought. Even though I know what's going on, I don't think I bought because of my... Somebody called it a rant the other day. Somebody had the cheek to suggest I was ranting.

It was a little bit. It was a little bit ranty.

It was a very middle class rant. Anyway, that was interesting. And again, it just shows, dear listener, go back to people that haven't bought. Just go and ask them to buy again. They did and I did. And, you know, it's not kind of linked to the conversation. Anyway, so there's that part of it. But do you remember your bike shop?

Yes. Well, not my bike shop, but the bike shop we spoke about. The bike shop with the... Season two, episode one. Yeah, have a listen.

I went in the other day. Did you? I had a bit of time... Was the bouncer there? The bouncer was not there. Really? There was a very, very small person there, but I don't think...

At the door?

No, no, no. I could literally walk in of my own volition. Ooh. Interesting.

It's interesting. Maybe they've listened to the podcast too.

Maybe we are now spreading through the world. Anyway, because this really, really interested me because, as you know, I'm a big biker.

Yep.

Bikist. Love riding my bike. I was really interested by this.

Cyclist. There's another... Is that what you call...?

A cyclist. I don't know why I said bikist. Bikist, biker. I always think bikers like more motorbike-y.

There's another term, isn't there, that keeps saying... Yeah, okay. Wankers. Yes, yes.

Hilarious. Hilarious. Well done. Anyway. Have you been planning that joint for a while?

No, no. It just came. Good. It just came to me. Again.

Yeah, obviously, like, biker, I think, is like motorbike. I mean, I do have a Vespa. I do have a Lambretta. Right. I did have a Vespa for a while. Anyway, I've got a Lambretta. It doesn't matter. Anyway, back on track. So I was really interested by the shop because I just didn't get it. I didn't understand why a shop like that was where it was. So I kind of... I went in to have a look and they have got some stunning bikes. And even though I'm standing there, it's odd because it's not a bike shop because there's no bike stuff. There are bikes, but, like, bike shops pull people in with, you know, like all the other shops, you know, kind of tyres and clothing and shoes and all this kind of stuff. Pedals, horns. Well done. Bells. Do you have a bell? Brilliant. Yes, and a basket. Right. You're really on fire, aren't you? I am. Yeah, you've practised. Anyway, and even when I'm in there kind of looking around thinking, it's some beautiful bikes. I don't really... I saw... It just didn't make sense somehow. And then this guy, and I think it would be fair to call him a non-cyclist. Right. This bloke just...

What gave you that impression?

Well, he just... I don't know. Maybe that's really unfair, but... Well, he just didn't look like a cyclist. Now, like, some of the bike shops that I kind of spend a lot of time at, you see people. There's all like a... Everyone's very different, but there's all like a... Like, they sort of look sort of similar. They sort of... How they kind of interact with the kind of bikes, et cetera. Anyway, so this guy literally...

A bit like up themselves, really.

What is wrong with you? Right. No drinking on a Sunday night if we're doing this.

So what's... It's just a bit... What's the word for them? You know, like... I mean, you are a special breed, aren't you, cyclist? Like... Are we? Yes. Like, you know, just the way you just cycle about and own the road and just group up in these big huddles. Like, just, you know... I mean, you get a bad rap, don't you? But, like... I mean, the other day, right, I was driving, because, you know, in a car, like...

What? Destroying the planet?

No, yeah. Anyway, driving in my car.

Yes.

And a cyclist... So I was coming into a major road to turn left into it, and he was coming off the major road to turn into my road. And, like, not even cut a little bit of the white line, completely went on the wrong side of the road. Right? Completely. I mean, yeah, now I'm tarring all cyclists with the same brush. But, you know, like, in his lycra... And the way that he looked at me and started flagging me off, like, I'd done something wrong, like,

what a fucking prick. Like, and he's just there, just like, oh, I'll do whatever I want. Like,

you absolute arsehole. Like, I had to, like, physically break...

As opposed to what? Mentally breaking?

Well, you know, like, I had to stop the car. Good lord. Just so he could do whatever he wanted. I mean... But it's not just him, is it? Like,

that's... Anyway... Good. Carry on. Should we take these bits out?

I think we can probably take a big chunk of this out, actually. Anyway, look, to go back to it. Because what it struck me... Because when I was in, this guy didn't necessarily look like a cyclist. Turns out he wasn't a cyclist.

Right.

So he said to the, um, one of the guys, one of the kind of assistants in the shop... Did he use his manners? Did he use his...

Manners. Was he, like, polite? Well, there you go. But that's a sure sign he wasn't a cyclist, then, isn't it?

Literally no one likes you. Both emails we've had in about this podcast.

No one, no one likes you. Anyway...

Excuse me, sir. May I have a look at a bite? You're not a cyclist.

Stop it. Stop the words. Stop. Stop. No more drinking on a Sunday night. Right. So, basically, so this guy comes in and he says, my friend wants to go cycling with me, so I need a couple of bikes. I need one for on the road and one for off the road. And in about 20 minutes later, this guy had walked out spending around six grand... Jesus. ...on two bikes. And that's when it kind of made sense, because you think, you've got this shop, it's like you said before, it is very Apple set up. It's beautiful bikes. The tech in there is very interesting, so you can design your own bikes. It's all very that. And it struck me, this is not a bike shop for cyclists. This is a bike shop effectively for non-cyclists. This person, again, I don't know, but go with me here. This person wants to cycle. His mate wants him to buy some bikes. He doesn't probably know about bike shops. You know, the little kind of that, you know, that real kind of purist bike shop. He probably doesn't know those. He might know of a Halfords, but that's not his target. That's not his market, because he's got money to spend on this. And it just struck me, this place here, it's not, I don't think, a bike shop for cyclists. It's a bike shop for non-cyclists, people who want to buy a bike. So they go to a shopping centre, or they see it in this shopping centre. They see these beautiful bikes set out in the right way. And it just really kind of struck me, of course, this makes sense, particularly at the moment. Now, there is a big shortage of bikes. Lots of the big bike shops have very little in. This is quite a small shop. There are plenty of bikes in there. There's a range of bikes in there. And it just kind of made me think, ah, I kind of get it here. You know, people, this is almost like, like a bike as a product, whereas the bike, of course, the bike is a product to me, but it's more than that. And all the kind of, you know, kind of hilarity that can kind of ensue this, it is more, more than that. Whereas this is for people that just want to buy a bike. Right. They don't want the stuff that I, and therefore they can buy a nice high-end bike. Like, to be able to walk in off the street and spend six grand on a bike, and it just made me think, ah, what they've got here, whilst it felt weird to begin with, this is, and I think you and I talked about this, are you in the right place for your customers? And actually, for the bikes they're selling, you know, it is, and you know, let's, we won't go into it too much, because that's not fair on the front of the brand, but you know, the bikes they're selling, and the level of spend, and all that kind of stuff, it is exactly the right place for that people to walk past and go, ooh, I might buy a bike. Whereas someone like me, who's a cyclist, will have spent the last 27 years of their life working out what cog they want on that bike. You know, and again, it just, again, I have played fast and loose with the word interesting, but it makes me think that, look, are you in the position where you're, the people you want to be seen by can see you? And again, we, you know, I always rant at networking, but so many people say they want one thing, they go to a, and then they go to like a networking scenario that those people are never there. You know, and it is, it's like, you know, if you, if I really wanted to get kind of high, high net worth individuals, well, you might advertise in the in-flight book for private jets, or, you know, it's that kind of, you know, kind of first class travel. And you think, look, you know, where are you? Where are the people you really want to buy from you? Where are they?

And then how do you enter into that world? I see. Okay. So, I mean, yeah, so just going back to the bike shop then. So, I mean, so being a cyclist, cause I'm, I am interested in this side of things. So being a cyclist, would you look at those bikes and think I would have one of those, or does that, I mean, forget the price for. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful bikes. And you know,

it's a great business. It is a great company. And I know the bikes quite well. It was more the setup of it that surprised me. Like bike shops have everything, you know, have all the other stuff and it's kind of part of it. This was only bikes, no helmets, no shoes, no tires. There's nothing there. It's literally the bike is a standalone product. Right. And I'm sure there will be some cyclists that will go in there. And I could be way, way off the mark there, but it was literally this guy that had come in and said, effectively, I'm not a cyclist. My mate wants me to go cycling. He says, I need to do road stuff. I need to do some off-road stuff. And to walk out kind of six grand lighter. That's kind of mad, really. And it just thought, ah, that's why a shop that, that shop is in that position with the stock that they've got, how that looks. And it makes such a big difference. Yeah. It isn't, you know, I don't think a normal bike shop in that place would work as well because it's not, it isn't the kind of the aspirational stuff. It was just really interesting. The fact that actually, you know, you have got these products set out in this way with that sort of lighting. You can go in and each bike's got a screen next to it. So, you know, this isn't about the minutiae of what sort of cogs, what sort of wheels, what sort of stuff. There is that, you know, is that I want blue one. I want this kind of frame finish. I want this. And it, it just makes that into a, a place where it is more attractive maybe for the non cyclist or the non kind of anal cyclist. Like, you know, excuse me. So close. You'd have thought after last week's, last week's comment, but does that make any sense, mate? Do you kind of get where I'm going here?

It does. Yeah. I mean, I'm almost sad. I haven't been, I'm going to go and have a look at this shop because I'm all for people. They won't let you in. But I'm a non cyclist. So I'm their target customer. I'm all up for people doing things differently. And I think, you know, with things like bike shops, as an example, like, you know, like I suppose if you were to open a bike shop, you would naturally think, right, well, of course, you know, we have to sell helmets, reflective things, bells, whistles, whatever, you know, the, the, the things that people clamp onto a bike. Well, actually I suppose, I mean, you know, we don't know how successful or whatever that, how, how they're doing, but it, you don't have to do that. You can do things differently and attract a completely different audience. You know, we spoke about Apple and things before when I have the Apple versus PC debate, which I don't even get into them anymore, but, you know, sort of back in the day when it's like, oh, you know, pieces are better. You can't do this with Apple. You can't upgrade them. You can't change the RAM. You can't do all of this stuff. It's like, well, that's kind of the point. Like it's now, it's just a very, if I was going to recommend a computer to anybody, it would be, I, well, depending on, I would ask a few questions, but generally my first answer would be a Mac, possibly a Chromebook. Windows, like would be bottom of the list. Yeah. Unless really something really, really Windows specific because it just, you just get it and it works straight away. You don't have to worry about so many other things. It's just simple. I think Apple have really nailed that. And it sounds not really targeting, as you say, those traditional cyclists because they will put, and that's why I asked, you know, did you like the bikes in there? Because they might sort of scoff at them and say, oh, you can get that spec at half the price if I build it myself or do you see where I'm going with this? Yeah. In the same way you can like, but you're not comparing apples to apples. Like when people compare like a new Mac to a new PC, it's very different when everything has been built specifically to work together. And that's possibly what it is with these bikes. You might rule over a new cog for your bike. Yeah. And this bike might have a very different setup, but together those things work really well. And if I was buying a bike, that's what I would want.

Yeah. And I think it's, it's a really interesting point that actually it's the experience of doing, the experience for me of buying a bike. You know, there is, you know, my bike is astonishing. It's actually kind of in the grand scheme of things, it's pretty cheap, but you know, I went out on Tuesday, did a hundred miles on it. It just does everything. I have done everything. I've done like 200 miles in a day. I've done off-roading. I've done overnight. I've packed it up and kind of, you know, kind of tented around. It's like, it does everything. I know the bike as and when that breaks, I can't get a new bike until that breaks because it does everything. But I know the bike I've been having, I've been looking at it. So actually it's the, the experience, someone like me, half the fun of it is the looking at it, research that. That's not the shot for them. And it is, you're dead right. It's the experience that's different here. And actually, because a lot of people don't, they just want a bike. Yeah. And if you just want a bike and you've got money, you want it to be a nice bike. You don't really kind of care so much about the mechanics of it. I mean, it's, it's part of it, but you just, there it is. There's a nice bike. These are the people walking past that shop front. I think that's the stuff that really interests. It's in the middle of a city. It's a bit like, um, I might've mentioned this last month. Uh, we've got a place in, um, Suffolk and there is a really nice bakery there. And it just, you know, if I was going to set up a really expensive bakery, I would do it somewhere there because you've got an area where there are loads of holiday homes. You know, there's a big draw, there's big money that comes in from London there. So actually, if I wanted to sell that kind of stuff, I would do it there because people are on holiday. They spend more on holiday anyway. They like the, you know, they like to treat themselves, you know, so it's not, it doesn't work necessarily as well in like a kind of an urban living area. It will work better in a holiday area. We know they spend more on holiday. They know you spend more on treats, you know, the whole experience of it going to get it in the morning. And it's there, I suppose, you see the point in all of this is that, you know, where, where actually kind of in physical terms are your customers and how do you appear there? You know, how, how do you, um, you know, how do you get, um, in front of those people? What shows are they at? What places do they go? Where are they on holiday? You know, what, and this is, you know, you see where you have to kind of think back into the, the, the minutiae of your products. It'd be really easy to think about croissants as, oh, it's just, it's just not nice cafe stuff. And that will probably work. But actually, if you can get, you know, somewhere, like I said, where there is loads of money, people relax, they're on holiday, they want to spend more because we, you know, that's just the thing. You do spend more and it's, but it's the same for kind of every single business here. Like, where are these people? How do you appear there? I can remember my old man used to say, if you can travel for business, travel first class, because that's where other big spenders are. If you want the high net worth people, that's where they are. You get yourself into that world. And it is, it's like that networking thing like that. But I think, you know, also it is, where do you appear? When people are talking about, where do I place my ads? Where are the people I going to? So this is what, this is a thought process you've got to go to. Cause I think, you know, by the very fact that I can't think of any, and I'm sure there will be any of these other bike shops in cities across the country that I've seen, this is a kind of a bit of a brand new venture. We'll see if it works, who knows, but it is that they are putting themselves in a really different spot where they think people that will happily, as shown by this conversation, walking off the street and spend six grand on a bike. Yeah. I don't know, mate. It just really got me

thinking. Hmm. Well, yeah. So as it is, I mean, yeah, it's not a normal bike shop, is it? So yeah, like they're doing something differently and targeting a different, a different clientele.

And interestingly, sorry to interrupt you, I don't think a normal bike shop would work in that position. No, probably not. Because it wouldn't catch people's eyes. It's like it's, that's a different world that they don't necessarily want to be part of. Whereas the beautiful, shiny,

Apple-esque kind of layout makes a big difference. Yeah. In that shopping centre, it's, it's very much clothing shops, shoe shops, jewellery shops, John Lewis, you know, all that type of stuff, isn't it? Yeah. Whereas, yeah, it's not just sort of on your normal high street or industrial street, which is where you would go typically to go and buy anything

bike related. Yeah. But it's just, yeah, it is, it's down to where your people are. And I think, you know, people need to kind of really, I don't know, do you know what? Most of the reasons, when I work with businesses, most of the reason that they're in, they're not making enough, they're not doing what they want to do is that they don't have a clear picture of who the perfect target market is. Like really kind of crystal clear, you know, knowing everything about them. And this is why most people kind of get stuck, I think. And I think even when you get that fixed, people aren't, people aren't then thinking, well, okay, how do I be seen by them? And the amount of people that you speak to are kind of a normal networking group. And they'll be like, yeah, I'm really looking forward to, you know, it's kind of the CEOs of the big companies. I'm like, they're not here.

Yeah, no, they're not. I went to an event this week, traveled to London to go to it. So we're in Nottingham now for the purposes of the tape. Just traveled to London. And it was, there was people just talking about investment and their investment stories and some really big companies and some really good stories were there. If I was looking for investment at that time, that was the room that I needed to be in because there were investors there, there were people listening, there was all startups, that was exactly it. So when sat down, watched the whole event and then, yeah, I needed to get back, but only really spoke to like one person, had one conversation just as I was leaving. And actually that conversation turned into a huge opportunity just from really just being in that room. Like it's like, you know, how, what your name, what you do, what's your experience. It's like, oh, we do this. Your experience will be perfect. I could have probably had 10 of those conversations. Just being in that environment was eye opening really. And just a reminder, it's exactly what you're saying. Like, yeah, if you want to, if that's where your customers are, that you need to go and hunt and find them on what are they going to be listening to? What are they going to, you know, what events are they going to be going to? And that was the perfect event for anything like that.

Yeah. And I think, you know, as a friend of mine that does lots of things, but you know, kind of coaching, works with people that are, you know, kind of, you know, often it turns out, a lot of people we work with are quite kind of fitness conscious. They like doing the challenges, that sort of thing. So he will go and do marathons and triathlons and Ironman and that sort of stuff. And he just meets loads of people there. And that is a real kind of like-minded thing. And he kind of picks up quite a lot of business from those positions. And I think people aren't putting the effort in, even though they know what to do. Do you know what I mean? They know that actually they will meet higher network net worth. And again, we always talk about that, but it's not necessarily them. But then we meet higher net worth people in the middle of London at these kinds of events. Why aren't they paying to go there? Why aren't they taking the ticket down? And you know, why, you know, and it's, yeah, I think it's, I think we've got lazy. I do think we've got lazy. I think we've got one dimensional with it. Marketing shouldn't be easy. Most people like to run their business without marketing. I think there is, I think people are trying to spend as little as they can on marketing, which is kind of crazy because that's the thing that actually makes the money. And I'm not just saying just chuck a load of kind of cash at this, but you know, we always come back to the financial advisor kind of relatively local that he always purports to be, oh, well, I work with high net worth clients and you look at him and everything looks cheap. And I know that's really unfair, but do you know what I mean? It's just, you know, kind of where he is, how he acts, how he talks, even like what you kind of see on his social media. And like, I don't know, it's, I don't know, maybe I'm just kind of cross. In general, just kind of grumpy with stuff. You take, you take this bike shop an example, you take the, you know, the expensive bakery down, down at the coast as an example. You know, where the people are.

Yeah. I think with marketing, I think you've just, you know, reminded me of like,

I think it's very easy to make assumptions about people are or they are not, but a lot of the time it's testing. I mean, you know, just to take a step back. Right. So I had a conversation with someone this week and they were looking at spending more money on marketing, which I feel is always a good thing in general, but actually the bottleneck in their business wasn't marketing. It was physically capacity in the business. Yeah. So actually that all the marketing would have done would have just slowed them down even more because they couldn't cope with the business that was in. So, you know, that wasn't the right lever to pull, but generally it is. And people don't spend enough or think about it, or they'll try something and get a negative result. And then almost close off that entire channel. Let me give you an example. Oh yeah, I've tried Google AdWords. It didn't work. Okay. Well, that's a very broad statement to make. What did you do? Well, you know, I just set the campaign on auto and let it run for a couple of days, spent 500 quid. It's like, well, you know, like who were you targeting? What websites were you? You know, all of those things. So it's, it's very easy. And, you know, I've heard people like, and I've said, you know, have you tried targeting with AdWords? Have you tried Facebook ads? Oh no, I've heard it's really expensive. Who's told you that? This will be the financial advisor who's probably tried it and just switched it on. And now he's telling everyone that it doesn't work, but this stuff does work, but you do have to put that care and thought in and a bit of research first. And actually the cycle shop is a great example. Someone would say a cycle shop wouldn't work in a shopping center. Actually, yeah, a normal cycle shop probably wouldn't, but this one, it sounds like it is. Yeah. So you do have to think differently. And we've said, you know, think a lot more before, haven't we? So yeah, thinking differently and targeting, like who, who are your customers and how do you target them and where are they going to be?

Yeah. I think just while you're on that, I think it almost comes down a little bit to taking the risk. I think people are scared of taking the risk and I get that. I do. Yeah. I absolutely get that. And I think, you know, we are, you know, people are rightly and, you know, you should be keeping an eye on the money, but every market is so full, all the powers with the consumer. We've said this loads. You have to find a different way of doing this. You've got to look at a different way of doing this. And I think actually one way of doing that is outspending your competition. Now, I don't mean that as actually you are spending a load of cash, but knowing that most people are trying to do this for the cheapest possible way, what if you did it differently? You know, what if, you know, you wanted to go and meet a load of CEOs. What if you did this in a, you know, you got a nice, I don't know, you take a box at the rugby, the football, you know, whatever, you just actually just create a high end event that people want to be at. Oh, exactly. Yeah. And put it in there. And it's a gamble. It is a risk because you might not get anyone, but you know, the bigger gamble is actually keep going day in, day out, day in, day out, going to your local networking group. And again, I don't get much hate mail, but people do get grumpy when I kind of get grumpy at networking and there's nothing wrong with it, but actually they're not there. And the bigger gamble here is not the 500 quid that you have to spend on, you know, events and blah, blah, blah, blah. The bigger gamble is week in, week out, week in, week out, going to an event where in your heart of hearts, you know, that person's not going to be and trying to build a business that way.

Yeah. You've got to be analysing the stuff that you're doing, right. And if you are just turning up to a networking meeting, I mean, you can't just go to a networking meeting and expect business on day one, you know, so you've got to try this over a period of time. But if you're going there and actually like, yeah, those people just aren't in the room. If you're looking for CEOs, but you're in there with butchers, bakers and candlestick makers, it's just not going with all the will in the world. You can just keep showing up. It's just not going to work. Yeah. So yeah, where do you find those people? So how, yeah, how, how do people start then? Like, well,

where would you start? I think that, you know, every customer you ever need is on someone else's list. Okay. So, you know, there is a, yeah, so I do, I get lots of work with business coaches, you know, so people that are paying a business coach a lot of money to help, you know, the only more, you know, kind of, if you want, there's only one reason you get a business coach is that you want your business to move forward. There are only two ways a business move forward. You sort your shit out, you get the stuff and your processes and all that kind of stuff.

And then you get more. We can swear on these, you know, you don't have to like. I always

get concerned about why. Bottom. Oh, I feel so much better. But anyway, you sort your shit out. Yeah. And then you get more or better customers. Yeah. Okay. Business coach do that bit. I do this bit. Okay. So I know that if someone's happy to pay their business coach, I don't know, a thousand pounds an hour, they're happy to pay my fee. They're in that right kind of area. Okay. So, okay. My target market becomes business coaches. That's my version of having a shop front because I know those people are already perfect customers because A, they want something to change and they are serious enough about it that they're happy to pay a good whack for it. Okay. So that is, you know, those are two kind of big things for me. And I think I'd be saying to people, look, first of all, get absolutely super crystal clear again and again and again, and spend time looking at it, you know, interrogate your best customers, interrogate the people that paid you the most for the work you really enjoy doing and learn and just find out anything that might connect these people together. So, you know, there might all be a kind of engineering, there might be this, go and find that. And then think, well, look, who else knows them? And this doesn't stop you to go and to find them yourself, but it's way easier if they can be somewhere else. Yeah. You know, and again, you know, so it may well be actually, look, you know, this, you know, they will, this bike shop will know the demographics in this area, you know, in this shopping place are these kind of people. Great. Okay. That's a big tick for us. Same with the, same with the croissant shop in, uh, croissant. It was, it was, I mean, yeah,

for the purpose of the tape, it was the way that the hand expression just, I'm very French, but it's,

it's the same sort of thing. Like, you know, this, so I would, you know, I would really start with, who else has these customers? Who have I got in a non-competitive way? Who else has these people? How can I get in there? How do I add value? You know, I can add real value to the business coach by helping these customers out. Yeah. You know, and you know, it's, it's one and the same thing we're trying to do here. As a starting point for people, I would say, look, once you, and again, let's just assume you've got that crystal clear thing and you should revisit it again and again and again and again. Once you've got that, well, where are they? Who else knows them? Where do they hang out? There was a time CEOs, tops of businesses, played a lot of golf. Well, okay, go, you know, go into that world. And there's two ways of doing this. You know, route one is to get yourself on other people's golf events and kind of go in there. But route two is go and set your own golf event up. The thinking here is really important. If you're looking for top level CEOs or whatever it is, don't run your event at the local municipal golf course, run into a really nice course, you know, because the thing is it, it's not just, it's not the playing of golf, it's the experience. And I think with all of this kind of stuff, you know, you look at the, you look at the bike shop, everything, the experience is, you know, if you do want, high-end people, the experience is great. Similarly, I can think of a financial advisor that, you know, he's done very, very well for himself. You know, he, I mean, he has a high, kind of high net worth for him, but actually, you know, the bulk of his stuff has become, you know, kind of ordinary man on the street. And he spent, which he works very well, he spent a lot of time in pubs on a Friday lunchtime because the tradesmen were his, that was his meat and drink. Those are the people he really wanted to speak to. And he was just in there at the right time, nice guy, got into conversation. That's where his target market was. But yes, this is not only kind of a high net worth thing. I don't know why I do this weird thing with my hands. It's not only kind of a high net worth thing. It is where, you know, who are the people and where are they? And then make sure you appear in their world, either in person, you know, via the socials, you know, via, you know, kind of print copy, you know, via kind of direct mail, whatever it is, but go and find those people. So like this financial advisors, all his perfect target customers were already on

the pubs list as it were. Yeah. I mean, it just reminded me actually, you know, I used to get, used to get, I haven't been invited for a while, but you know, there was like, there's some big marketing agencies around here and I used to get invited to their events. Yeah. They put on really good events and speakers, et cetera, and networking. And of course, you know, like it's just to get all those people in the room because they get one or two of those people to convert them into clients. Then it's paid for itself, hasn't it? Yeah. So yeah, it's costly and it's time consuming, but if you're inviting and getting the right people in that room, then they're going to think of you

first. You just think about it, like a friend of mine runs a web agency, and he joins as many high-end masterminds as he can. Yeah. So he will go, you know, sit there at kind of a grand, grand and a half a month for these mastermind groups, but he sat with a load of people that were also paying a grand and a half a month. And actually all of these things forever, it always comes up that actually your web presence needs to be better. Now they're in it. They're, they're, they're part of this gang. They've got this kind of this, this, this, this, you know, masterminds, like you got this link. There is a connection between you when someone needs a web guy, where are they going to go? Well, they're going to go to the person sat in the room, you know, so he's got it because he likes it and he likes to learn it as well. But you've got 10 people in that room all paying lots of money for a day. So he can, he's in there. That's his perfect, perfect target market. Where is it for you? What is your version of that higher mastermind? Because this is where the real money is. This is where the business success is. This is the thing that helps you sleep at night because you know, you have easy access to the right people, which is like the most important thing. Once you have that, once you have that, the only thing you kind of got to do is not be a dick because you'll get, they'll get to know you. They'll get to like you. I get to know, like, and trust in a million other different cliches, but it's it. It makes it dead easy because, you know, I mean like this guy, he knows he's going to go to these mastermind events, you know, probably does two or three a month. So it's his, he's out there and this is five grand a month. I bet he makes 20 a month back just on those events beyond it. And then he gets passed to the next people and the next people, the next people. And you know, that referral stuff and you get all the stuff that we speak about with like, okay, once you get a customer, keep them spend, you know, you know, there was a brief rant last time, but this is it. You've got to think,

where are these people? Okay. So I suppose the long short of it is thinking a bit more outside of the box to where your customers are going to be testing some of those.

Oh God, you know, it's boring, Paul. Just think more, you know, I don't know if anyone ever thinks, where are my perfect target customers? Who, well, I don't think most people think who are their perfect target customers, but where are they? And then how do we go and find them? And where are they already? Cause they're already somewhere. Yeah. Yeah. They're already somewhere in, you know, I know high end boutiques, the local pub. The good thing about that is that that's not a sales pitch. You just have an appointment. I would imagine very occasionally go to your local pub. I bet you have relationships with those people in there in various different formats that you kind of say hello to, or you chat to, or this and that and the other. Eventually the kind of, Oh, what do you do comes up? Well, exactly. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean,

my local pub, um, it's, yeah, it's very close to me. Like I've ended up, I've done like a couple of like DJ nights down there just from having those conversations. I've never gone in and said, Oh, do you need a DJ? It's just, we'd be talking about stuff and then those conversations happen. So yes, being in that situation and just talking to different people, I think it's, it's always a benefit, isn't it? But you've got to, yeah, open your mouth and say the words.

Conversation always wins. You know, the absolute crucial part is conversations with the right people. So do the work at the start to work out where these right people are and then either curate an event, which brings them in or better still piggyback an event and go and do that, go and be in that room, go and, you know, go down to London. But you know, just, just think about it because you might think, Oh, well, you know, they'll all be here at this expo. Yeah. But will they be on the floor of walking the expo or are they in the VIP of walking the expo? And actually, yes, you can have to pay another a hundred quid as opposed to getting in for free to be in the VIP. But that's where the people that have got the money or whatever it is. That's where they are. And I think to wrap this one up, I think just think really deeply, where are the people? Where could they be? Who else knows them? And then how do you get in there? Because once you've got that bit, the only bit you've got to do is not be a dick. You just talk to people as normal people. And you know, it's really interesting, isn't it? I mean, you know, cause you and I probably spend, you know, time in various different guys in various different rooms and everyone is exactly the same, but some people will have, you know, a grand to spend on a watch and some people have a tenner to spend on a watch. Well, look, it's fine. Just choose which of those, where you want to be and just be in there. But again, it just comes back to putting some thought into it. Let's wrap

it up. Let's wrap up that one. Let's wrap it up. Fantastic. Well, thank you very much for joining us in the studio and we'll be back from the episode soon. We'll see you next time. See you next time. Bye.

We'll be back next week for another edition of the Throb podcast. If you want to find out more, you can find me at paulchapmanuk.com. And you can find me, Bertie, at bertiecord.co.uk. Thanks again. See you next week.