Hiring People

Welcome to Throb, The Reality of Business podcast. Real business chat from real people without the shiny veneer of gurus anywhere near it.

With your host Bertie Cordingly and Paul Chapman and maybe some guests along the route, we'll talk about our experiences of running business, helping others run a business and sharing real stories based on real experience.

Hello, Paul Chapman. How are we doing?

I'm very well, thank you. Very well. How are you, sir?

Yes, I'm great, thank you. And hello, listeners. Thank you for listening again to the Throb podcast. Welcome. Welcome indeed. So then, Paul, on this glorious, glorious day where we're sat inside, sweating, recording, what are we going to talk about today?

We'll probably start with you taking your duffel coat off, mate. Well, today we are going to talk about the most expensive thing in businesses, the thing in a business that is most likely to cause it to fail. And often that's not a malicious thing, but it is. It's the thing in business that causes the most issues, costs the most, makes it more likely to fail than any other kind of particular issue. But actually, I think it doesn't really get talked about that much. And that is hiring of staff. And most businesses, not all businesses, most businesses of size have people in them. People are ultimately fallible. And all of this comes down to your ability as a business owner to make sure you've got the right people. And it's a good topic. It's one I love. And I think it's a really interesting one, too, because I think it's not one that people tend to talk about. So I'm always surprised how simply people get hired and how the lack of hoops to jump through, the lack of kind of testing on this kind of thing. But so, yeah, that's our topic for today, mate. But, you know, you've probably got the wealth of experience on this. So why don't you kick off with something for us?

Hiring, hiring. Yeah, I love. I actually enjoy, even though I say I hate it, I do secretly enjoy the hiring process. I mean, yeah, I've hired a lot of people, fired a lot of people as well, which maybe that is a separate podcast. But, yeah, I mean, hiring, if you're going to grow and scale a business, right, then you can't do it without hiring. Like you need people to support you within a business. It's crucial. It doesn't necessarily mean that you should hire people, right? So like we spoke about in previous episodes, if you're perfectly content with your business as it is, and it's giving you the lifestyle that you want, then it could just be that you're just saying no to new work and you're just keeping the business the size that it is. However, if you are trying to grow a business and there are definite skill gaps, then there's always a point where you need to hire. So let's just assume that we're going with the latter scenario. You do need to hire, and that's what we're talking about today, essentially. So how do you go about hiring people? Where do you find them? How do you make sure that they're right for your business, et cetera? I suppose the first thing is you've got to identify what actually is that you need the additional help with. So where is the bottleneck in the business? So have you got to a point where maybe you need to outsource your sales or maybe you need some help with customer service or it could be marketing, whatever, really. So I think that's the first thing. It's really identifying where that bottleneck is. So I think once you have identified that bottleneck, then you can start putting together what this ideal candidate will look like. Now, it's a common mistake I see really, really early on is that you start to think, oh, actually, I probably haven't got that much work for a full-time marketing person. So maybe I'll look for sales and marketing, and maybe they can do a little bit of flyering as well. And you start to end up with this huge job spec, almost looking for this unicorn of a person that I promise you, you will never find. And I think even when you start looking at like a marketing role, for example, you might start thinking, actually, yeah, we serve a marketing. So we need SEO. We need AdWords. We need Facebook ads. We need someone to manage our social media. Those people don't exist. I'm not saying there aren't people out there that can do all this stuff, which is what I'm going to come to. But I think the first mistake that can be made is you start to think, well, actually, I haven't got enough, I don't have enough work for someone to work full-time, et cetera. So we'll start to make this really broad job spec. And that starts to make it very difficult then because a lot of people don't have all of those skills, apart from entrepreneurs and people that have then learned those skills within those businesses. And those people are not going anywhere. They are staying within that business. So I find that it's better, especially at an early level, and this can continue throughout your business journey. I find it's much better to look for people that share the values of your company that are much more a cultural fit. They like what you're doing. They like you as a person. People who are reliable, trustworthy, and all those sorts of skills are most important, curious. They're curious and they want to do well. They want to learn new stuff. Because those people, if you can find them, and they do exist, if you can actually find those people, then they will be willing to learn all of these new skills. So you might bring somebody on as, say, a social media marketer, but then they might be interested and say, actually, I've always been interested in learning a bit of SEO. Do you mind if I take on that project? Of course not. Let's give it a go. Or it might be interested to work on email marketing campaigns. And there'll always be bits that they'll excel at and bits that they don't. But I think those examples, I think finding someone that's much more of a cultural fit, that they share the values of your business, is far, far more important than looking for the actual skills, especially at that early stage. What do you think?

Yeah, I mean, I think I both agree and disagree. I think definitely it's only ever about the person. Find the person first. Once you've got your job roles on it, find the person. You can give them the skills. I think for me, the key bit, I think, is actually work out what you actually want the help with and then recruit someone that has that skill. So, you know, an example I see a lot is that someone will go, right, I need a marketing executive. And actually, they don't. They need an admin skilled doer. Because actually, the job that needs doing is making sure that the emails are sent, making sure that the posts go from computer to Facebook and making sure that things are applied to. And it's not like a ranking of jobs here. But actually, I think a lot of businesses that I work with, actually, what they kind of, they need me. They need someone to come in with that kind of strategic effort, build the plan, build the information. But most businesses fall down on the doing of it. Most often, rather, it will fall down because the actual execution of the plan is the bit that doesn't get done. Because the person doing it is a marketing person and they are creative and they are thinking. The creation of it, that's the excitement. That's the bit that the kind of marketing people tend to do. The doing of it often isn't it. And actually, what more often than not, what most businesses need, it is that, that someone who pressed the button, send the email. The person to actually go to, right, Paul, can you send me the email so I can get it out? Remind me, right, Paul, when you go and do this, take the photos, send it to me, I'll get it out. And I think that's a really kind of key thing here is that before anybody gets into any kind of employing thing, work out what the skills are. Because, again, under that marketing umbrella, let's just use that because that's my world. Actually, what you might need is that copywriter. What you might need is a videographer. And they'll have these other skills as well. But, you know, like everything in business, everything works better if you have the right people doing the right things. For most businesses, it's the execution of it where things fall down. You know, loads of business owners we speak to, they've got the ideas, they can do the stuff, but they never get it out. And I think that's the key bit. So whatever it is you think you've got going on in your business. And, again, a good way of thinking about it, a way that I was told to think about it is, literally, if you are like a, let's just suggest you're a one-person band, you're going to go and find some stuff. Write down every job, you know, and then look at it. Like, what's the stuff that only I can do? What's the stuff that only I should do? What's the other stuff that needs doing? Right. What does that look like? Because more often than not, it does, you know, to repeat myself, it goes into, I need someone to do the do. And I think, you know, that's a really good idea. And all too often you see people go, right, well, we need it. We've got a load of marketing. It's not getting done. We'll get another marketing person in. And actually, that doesn't help. In truth, it often makes it harder because that person then creates their own marketing. But that skill of pressing the button and getting it done, that doesn't happen. And I think that's always been really important for me. Whatever industry, whatever the thing is, what are the actual things you need doing? What are the skills you don't have? And how, you know, find someone to fill that. And at that point, that's when it becomes, yes, there needs to be some experience. But it needs to be just about the person. My old boss was great at this. He would find really good people and he'd give them the skills to do.

Yeah, I agree. I see where you're coming from with this. And this is, I suppose this is coming back to, I mean, it's contextual, right? You need, it all depends on what size your business is, where you are, et cetera. I think, yeah, the context of like a one-man band in that the chances are it's going to be a doing person that you need. Like, there's a high probability that that's it. Like, you will be doing, you'll be wearing multiple hats, but then you'll need to start delegating some of those tasks. And I think in that context as well, yeah, maybe the, yeah, looking for someone, I suppose, getting back to what I was saying earlier, it's like, yeah, be really clear that there's loads of stuff that he's doing, but we'll show you how to do it. It's interesting because a lot of people say, oh, I'll never find anyone because all our systems are bespoke or what I do is unique. Everybody thinks that. Everybody thinks that their business is unique and that there's nobody out there that can do the stuff that you do. That's completely normal. That's a normal feeling. But I promise you there will be people that can help. Is somebody going to do the job as well as you? Maybe not. Maybe not. But, you know, done is better than perfect a lot of the time. So if you can get things that are done 90% to level, 80% of your level, and that frees up loads of your time, then actually a portion of that time then can be just getting that work from 80 to 100 to the standard that you want with revisions or going back. So there's always a process. There's always something you can do. But I think going back to the original point, yeah, maybe necessarily saying I want someone that can do all of these things rather than I want someone that can take direction and do learn new things. I think there's a difference there because you could cut like – I'll give you an example. A while ago, I hired somebody for marketing. In the same example that I was giving you earlier, I wanted them to look at email marketing. I wanted them to do some social media marketing. This was for another business a while ago. Whereas, actually, when I interviewed that person, like, talking about MailChimp and email marketing, they had no idea. Like, literally, like, never gone anywhere near it. But they were a really good copywriter. But the main thing was they had the curiosity and the interest. They were like, actually, yeah, I can't do that. I'd be really keen to learn. And that's the point I was trying to make earlier. So even though, yeah, they couldn't do that stuff specifically, they could do a significant portion of the job anyway. And I was able to then train them on the things that I knew. So actually, they could then go ahead and do that. And that worked out really well. And I've got loads and loads of examples where things like that have happened in the past where I've brought people in just to do a specific job. But they are keen and they have shown that interest and they do want to learn and grow, you know, the business with you. And I think if they buy into what you're doing, I think that that is the main thing. Now, when your business is bigger, you're going to need very, very specific roles, of course. And that's a very different mindset, really, when you're hiring. But we'll delve into that anyway.

A couple of kind of side issues on that. I think we are actually on the same page, isn't it? And that I think the job thing that you spoke to at the start could easily be three different roles. And I would much rather people, rather than going, I need a marketer and paying five days a week, I'd have one day a week of a copywriter, one day a week of an SEO person. And actually get that skill set in. And this is where you've got to think yourself. I saw an ad the other day that was for a PA, admin and marketing person. You think, what? It's just the most ludicrous thing in the world. Yeah, that's it. And you're either never going to find anyone. You're never going to get anyone who is good at those things apply because that's just not a thing. And it's just crazy. And anyone that does apply is probably not going to be good at them because there's kind of three so separate things. So a sort of side issue, I think, actually, back into what we've both said there. What are the real skills? And then turn those into jobs. It doesn't have to be. And it quite often isn't one job. And there's nothing but kind of part-time stuff. The other thing I would just add on there is that if you interview someone or you find someone you think they're really good, but not for that role, keep hold of them. Find a way. As in, you don't give them a job, but keep hold of them. Keep that knowledge because you might need them. I think back to when I went to work a job previously, I forget. I went for a national accounts manager position, I think. I can't remember. But anyway, the guy said to me, you know, Paul, he rang me back after the interview and said, look, Paul, you're not right for that job. I want you involved somewhere. I'll be in touch. And that's, forgive me, bigging myself up here, but clearly he'd seen something, a passion, a vision, a value that could be useful to the organization. And he had the foresight to think, well, OK, I'll get him before someone else did. He was really good at this to the point that I remember an employee left to go somewhere else. And he was a really good guy. And I know about two years later, he got rung by someone asking for a reference on this guy. And he basically said to him, I'm not going to give a reference because I want to speak to him first. And he rang him back and said, I didn't realize you're on the market again. Do you want to come back? Like, he just knew the value of good people. Oh, really? Yeah. And this guy went back to work for him and may or may not still be there. I suppose it's that value, exactly what you said. Find the good people and keep them. And that doesn't mean give them a job, but keep them, keep the knowledge because you will need them.

I think your point earlier about the VA slash marketing slash toilet cleaner, whatever, is you're not going to find that person, certainly from an app, right? And if you do, it will just be people that can say they can do all that stuff. Like, it's a unicorn. It just doesn't exist or extremely, extremely rare. Those people do exist. But if you wanted a Michelin star chef, right? And you were like, I want a chef slash bar manager slash server. It's like you're not going to find anyone with those skill sets. But those people do exist because someone who's running their own business will probably be a Michelin star chef. And actually, on the quiet nights, they'll serve people behind the bar and then take the food out, et cetera. So they're there. And but you're not necessarily going to find them. But if you were looking for, you know, the primary thing there is like looking for someone that's a chef. I have a conversation with them. And it's like, look, on a Monday, we're thinking about opening, but we don't want to bring any other staff in. Would you mind taking the orders? Then it's their choice, isn't it? Then you can still have those sorts of conversations with people. You don't want to cast the net too specific. I think at the beginning, you just really want people that are keen to help. Or in that scenario, it could be that the chef's actually coming to you and saying, do you know what? Why don't we open on a Monday? Well, there's no people there. Well, actually, I don't mind serving. So let's get this place busier. Let's grow it together. Those conversations can happen with the right people. If you get the right people in, then they'll want to grow your business as much as you do. And that's what I really love when finding people who are really buying into your vision and your values and things like that. So if you find those people, they're the ones that are worth hanging on to.

Guess then, if we're talking about finding these people, we ought to have a conversation about kind of the job ads. And we'll come to that sort of a bit in a second. But I think as part of this, if you are looking for that unicorn, and they are out there, they're very rare, but they are out there. You probably need to give them the license, as it were, to see that this is a job ad. So your job ad isn't going to say, as this one did, we need a PA marketing admin person. It's going to say, we're a young, fast-moving business. We're looking for someone to shore us up. Ideally, you're pretty good at your admin. Do your way around Facebook, and you can send the odd email too. You've got to sort of write it in that way to get it. And it's really interesting, right, because so many job ads I see just drivel, tedious, dull, pointless drivel. And I think employers these days should and probably have to fight as hard to get the employee as the employee does to get the job. I'm always amazed just how badly, pointlessly written job ads are, where actually, again, I think back to a previous place, we would get hundreds, hundreds of applications. We would write brilliant job ads. I can remember one example where we were talking about this thing we're doing. It's not quite as easy as pie, but certainly easier than a Sunday morning. And it's like a really odd thing to put in a job ad. But these things helped us find the people that it was right for. If you write your job ad with some honesty, with some personality, you are far more likely to get the right sort of person. That thing that we spoke about at the start, aim for the person. I think you're far more likely to get that if you write a job ad that sounds like it's a conversation you're having rather than a template that you're using.

So with that in mind, mate, how do we construct this job ad for people? What does it look like? Where you've done this before, what sort of stuff are you putting in the job ad?

I think talking about the business and about you and almost like what the opportunity looks like. So let's just say you're a startup that's just got some funding, right? Then talk about that. Talk about how every day is going to be different because that isn't going to be for everyone. And it's the same with any other marketing. As much as you want to turn on the people that you want to get excited about this, you want to turn off the people that are just like, no, fuck that. That sounds horrific. Why would I want to go and work at a startup where every day is different? Like, I just want to turn up at nine and go at five and that's it. But I think that part of the job is also important, as in the environment they're going to be in is just as, if not more important than the job that they're going to be doing, right? You love what you do and I love what I do. But if I had to clock in somewhere and be working with miserable dickheads all day, I'm going to fucking hate it. It doesn't matter how much I enjoy my job. Like, the environment's important as well. Make a big deal about that. Don't necessarily think about that. Like, if you're an entrepreneur, maybe the only thing that you've got to go on is maybe the last time when you applied for a job and you had to fill in your CV and your covering letter and all that other stuff or fill in an application form. Don't necessarily go back to that framework of what it was like 20 years ago because things are different now, right? You can think, from our Clich's episode, you can think outside the box of this a little bit. Like, I've seen people recently, like, don't send us a CV. Just send us a video of why you want to work here. Tell us about yourself. That sort of stuff is really, really powerful. Of course, there are things that you need to get across, but you don't necessarily have to do the whole CV covering letter and things like that. You can do things differently. Of course, it's subjective. It depends what role that you're after, right? But if you're looking for someone that's going to fit in, if I wanted someone that was going to fit in with the way that I work and the way, like, I'm quite, I suppose, extroverted in some respect. I do a lot of, like, speaking live and these podcasts and that sort of stuff. So I'm going to want someone that will at least understand all that. So sending a video application to me is going to be perfectly acceptable. But that wouldn't be acceptable for, say, McDonald's or whatever. Like, it's contextual, isn't it, to what you're working on? Have I lost you now, Paul? No, no, no.

I mean, I sort of agree and sort of disagree. I think it's, you know, so for me, I always want a CV because I want to be able to do some digging. So kind of, you know, where we do it, I'm always like, send a CV, but tell us what, show us something. Tell us, you know, because I do, obviously, because of what I do, a lot of the stuff, I will help a lot of businesses with their recruitment. And I will help them find people in the job ads and no, no, no, no. And actually, I want to see other stuff. I want the CV because then I've got, like, a benchmark for it. And also, particularly in my industry, I want to actually see their CV. If a marketing person is just sending me a blank sheet of paper CV, it's not a no, but it's certainly not as much the yes as the person that sends me a CV that's a little bit designed, that's got some creativity in it, that's got sort of – it shows they've put some thought into this. So I want to see the thought that's gone into something that is, in theory, entirely templated and bland. So, you know, I want a CV on two bases. I want to be able to do some digging on past employers and all that kind of stuff. And I want to see what effort they're going to put in. And that's really important. But always tell me something else. Tell me your favorite marketing campaign. Give me an idea about this. And I'll look at a particular thing that the business does. We tend to do a lot of ABC. Give us an opinion on it. And it's just all I – of my many, many rants, the biggest one is that people don't think enough. And when I'm looking for someone to employ, I want to see someone that has put some thought into this. And I want them to say, look, I really like the Dollar Shave Flavad because of this. You know, and I think interestingly along with that, you talked about video there. If it was me, if I was – I mean, I think I am unemployable now. But if I was applying for any job, I'd always send a video. Always, always, always. And I do that, one, because it's a good thing to do. It helps remember. Two, because it's still different. I can't believe it's still different. But no one does this. And it gives me a perfect time to direct them to something. And again, so I'll do this. If I'm putting a tender in or something like that, I will do a, hey, there, great, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, have sent the tender in so they've got everything they need. If I can just draw your attention to, you know, page 14, that's when da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. And not only am I doing that connection, but I'm a little bit more in control of their next steps. And I'd want to do that with my CV as well. So I'm going to say, look, so this is – you know, this CV, thanks very much. Really looking forward to it. Hopefully, we get a chance with a chat. Just a couple of points. You'll notice the stuff I did that A, B, and C, that was this, this, this. And that's one of the reasons why I'm applying because I think that will really help with whatever it is. And I think as employers, we should be encouraging that to happen at that – or at least leaving the door very open with a very clear doormat that says, show us some stuff. And I think that's – yeah. I think that – and that's – you don't want to be necessarily saying explicitly, do this, but you're right up to the line of saying it because you want someone to think, yeah, I want to do this. I want to give a bit more. I want to – because people do get nervous. People do get nervous about sending a CV and doing it differently. And I understand that because you don't want to stand out for the wrong reasons, as it were. But I think this is part of that job at it is, look, we want to see a CV, but most of all, we want to hear about you. I'm sure Waller is like, yeah, record us a song, do us a video, write us a book, whatever it is. We want to see something that – and I think that does two things for me. Yes, it helps with that process and you get to know that person. But it also gets rid of the people that aren't going to fit in a particular industry or aren't going to fit in a particular organization. Because, you know, accountancy, I'd still be putting a video in. It would be probably a slightly different video, but you have all this stuff that gives you that step. But, yeah, so I think we are on the same page with that. But I think it's really important as employers that we make it clear, easier, more likely that people will go that extra – that we would like to see something else other than just a CV.

I get that. And I've always used CVs. I just think now I think I'm a lot more open-minded to different ways of doing this. I'm going to use that word for the third time today, context, right? It's all contextual. If you are looking for a marketing manager, of course, you're going to need a CV. But, you know, let me just challenge with this one. Let's just say I was looking for someone really shithot at social media, right? Like the kids of today, without sounding too old, are generally far better at social than what I would be or what, you know, we would be. That's their talent there, right? So someone sent like – but they might be really shit at writing or creating a CV. So I think the CV or even the covering letter isn't necessarily going to do that justice. But, you know, sending me a video of – even if they're a little bit nervous about it, but, you know, this is my social media profile. This is what I've built myself over the period of 12 months. That's got far more value to me if I'm looking specifically for that role. And in that context, I don't give a fuck where they've worked in their previous experience. Like I'm going to, A, make sure that they are a cultural fit and they share the vision of the company, of the company that I've been employing them for. And, B, they can do the fucking job. And if I'm seeing that they can do that job, I don't care about the rest of it. And this sort of comes into do you look for people with degrees and things like that? And it's – I don't and never have done. But interestingly, I was looking on LinkedIn this morning. I'm not going to call them out because it's someone that I know and I'm going to speak to them about it. But, like, I just saw a really bad job ad and was reading through. And it's like university experience. And it's just – I just thought, come on, mate. You know better than this. They might listen to this podcast I've already spoke to about it. But when I saw it, it was literally like something I'd seen 20 years ago. It's like, come on. You know better. Like it's not – it was just such a dull, boring advert. And whereas I know that person personally. I know that if they worked for them, the person that was taking that role would have the time of their life. And that wasn't coming across in the job spec. It was just very dull, very plain, just the normal sort of stuff you would read. It's like this is something a little bit different. Whereas I've seen some really good examples of how to do this recently as well.

So, okay, mate. Leading on from that, a question I get asked a lot when I'm doing this kind of thing. What should I pay? Oh, yeah.

That is a good question. I suppose you've got a benchmark. You've got to do some sort of research for what people are paying in this industry, et cetera. It all depends on the level of experience and all the other boring stuff. But also, it also depends on what benefits you can – because it's not all about money, right? And people often think that money is a motivator to go to work. And it really isn't. The money is the carrot to get you through the door. But it is just one carrot. The reason that you stay with a company is because you enjoy it, you love it, whatever. Generally, some people just stay there for the money, but they fucking head their lives. And that's an entire different scenario altogether.

But I think, yeah, looking at what is a fair market value, what the job security is like, et cetera, even if job security is a thing nowadays, who knows? But if somebody is working from home and they've got loads of holidays or work from anywhere, then maybe they might accept a lesser salary in return for those benefits. I'm not saying you should pay people less if you can afford to, but especially if you're starting off, maybe you can almost tier the salary a little bit. And there's also options of, and again, depends on the company, there's equity within a company, share schemes and things like that can help offset a lower salary in the early days. So I'm coming from a startup background where generally money is quite tight, but the roadmap and the runway will dictate that actually in three to six months or a year, whatever, it will increase. So you can generally incentivize at that level. And again, if you're buying, if you're bringing people in, buying into what you do and really want to grow that business with you and possibly even like co-found it with you, then you can compensate less. But I would always say, as a general rule of thumb, you want to compensate people fairly, if not over and above. Like you said right at the beginning, like it's that people are valuable, right? And don't see this as, oh, I'm paying an extra like couple of grand a year for this. It's like, you're really looking after, like your staff become your family. You treat everybody well and the extra couple of grand a year or five grand a year or 10 grand a year, whatever, could make such a huge difference. Some people like that's the difference of them coming into work with like that financial pressure of shit. I can't pay my rent or I can't pay my bills at the end of this month to actually like feeling much more financially secure. And if you can, I feel that you should be paying, at least paying fairly. Be the best payer on the block rather than the worst. That's something to be proud about, right? Pay your staff really fair. Give them share incentives if you can. Give them the best benefits because they then will become your advocates for bringing on new people. And you might be listening to this thinking, oh, yeah, but I only have one man band and stuff and I can't really afford this and that and the other. But, you know, if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys, right? Like if you're, and I've seen this before where like there are people with an organization proper slaving away. Really, they're the ones that should be taking care of the big money and they're being paid peanuts. And as the business grows, as they generate more money, they're not that no one turns around to them and says, do you know what? You've done really well here. I'm going to increase your wages. It's almost like they'll get the standard 3% a year and stuff like that. And I've seen it. And those people know they feel it. And they start to resent that after a time. So, yeah, paying people, I'm not saying, you know, you should be splitting things down. Like you're the business owner. You're the one that's taking the risk. But, you know, look at what's, when I said benchmark, find out what's fair. And if you can afford to pay over and above, great. If you can't afford to pay that, then at least have some sort of plan or structure in place that will say, look, over the course of this month, this is where we want to get to. These are the targets we need to hit. Be really clear and transparent about that. And you'll get so much more back rather than, I mean, you've all like, oh, we can't afford to pay you more. And these people are doing your accounts and they see how much money is coming in. And then they see how much money you're wasting on cars and women and fucking God knows what, you know, like coming out of your business bank account. And you're just taking the piss in that regard. Like pay your staff. These are the people that are growing your business essentially.

Yeah, I think so. I think the shortest answer is as much as you can. Benchmark it and do as much as you can. Because the only reason you're employing someone is that you need some help with something. Therefore, back to my granddad, if a job's worth doing, it's worth doing well. Get the best person you can for it. And I think to go with you on that. There are so many things that contribute to it that cost nothing. So there are loads of things that you can do that make a massive difference. And I can think of one particular firm that are great at this. And there's the salary, but they have Friday beers. You get your birthday off. Above and beyond everything, there is, and this is all in the job ad. And I say, look, we do Friday beers. Lunch is on us on a Thursday. And all these things, they cost nothing. Obviously not nothing, but nothing. And they can't, but you know, let's just, the cost per year of Friday beers for someone is probably, I don't know, let's make a number of, 100 quid, 200 quid. And that is well, so you could pay like, I don't know, 20 grand. And the difference between 20 and 22 grand, you could actually probably get away with going, well, it's 20 grand, but we do Friday beers. We have an away day. You get your birthday off, da-da-da-da-da-da. All these things. And it makes a massive difference. And again, that tells them something about you. You something about them as well. So if you quite rightly can't afford to pay, you know, way more above it, well, fair enough. But it comes back to it. Think what is the best thing you could do to achieve this result, which is the best person coming to you as opposed to someone else, like one of your competitors. Have a think. All these things. There are loads of things that you could do that will help them. And those things that will make people want to work for them, because you've got to do this. If you don't make people really want to come and work for you, there are, even in the kind of difficult times at the moment, there are enough jobs, enough places that they could go. That could be staying where they are. It could be going to a competitor. If you want a good person to come to you, make them a good offer. And that is really important. That is not always about the salary. Yes, of course, it's going to be important. No, you can't massively undercut. But there are loads of great organizations that probably pay a bit less than their competitors, but they properly love their staff and their staff love them back.

Yeah, exactly.

And those are low cost, high value things, aren't they? Yeah. Essentially. You know, which probably isn't the reason that they're done. They're done genuinely to try and add value and trying to create a sense of team and inclusivity and all that other stuff. They are. But those, yeah, those sort of things just go well over and above the new standard sort of salary. And just like surprising and delighting as well. It's just gifting people. If someone's worked really fucking hard on something, say, you know what? Just take tomorrow off. Those sort of things. Like people really appreciate. Yeah, I've given someone like a 20 quid. Maybe it was like somebody who worked really, in fact, no, it was 50 quid. And I remember now. Gave them a 50 quid voucher because they'd worked really hard on a project over the course of a week and said, look, you've worked really hard on that. Take tomorrow off and take your girlfriend out for a meal. And literally, like they were nearly crying. Like the reaction to that, you just didn't expect. And speaking about them later, it's like that never happened to them before. As in not even at that level, like no one had ever thanked them or acknowledged the extra sort of work that goes into that sort of stuff. And I think that's those sorts of things. I don't think you can necessarily advertise. So if you naturally do those things or you're planning on doing those things, you don't have to list every single thing that you're going to do. But, you know, hiring is not just the point that you bring people in. It's like if you don't look after those staff, you're going to be hiring again. And you want to be hiring as little as possible, essentially. Like you don't want to be hiring unnecessarily. Like do the job properly once. And of course, people are always going to leave. You're always going to get churned. And you're always going to make mistakes. No matter how good somebody looks and how good they are in their interview, like you're going to employ some dickheads. That's just how it is. People will pull the wool over your eyes. It's just the name of the game. Don't let that put you off. There are genuine people out there. I mean, yeah, I've been proper shafted by people who seem so, so genuine. And then I've completely pulled my pants down. Not literally, but it's just, yeah. And when it's your business, you take it so personally as well. Like it's a hard thing to do. Like it is genuinely heartbreaking. It's like a family member or someone stealing from you or something. It really, really hurts. But that isn't necessarily a fault on you. There'll be some things you can learn from, but sometimes people are just really good fucking narcissistic liars. And they will pull the wool over your eyes for years sometimes. And it's happened to me. And it's not a nice feeling when that happens.

And, you know, I think...

I don't know how I got onto that.

Yeah, I think... Yeah, I think, though, without getting pessimistic, our job as employers is to basically get more right than we get wrong. You know, that's a little bit black and white. But, you know, you're always going to get one that doesn't quite turn out. Or there's always going to be one that was brilliant and they want to go... And that's fine. It's the nature of it. But I think it's about... Like all of this stuff that we ever talk about, a bit of thought in advance with give it the best shot of working. So load in what you can, treat them as well as you can. And then as and when you do find out they are a kind of narcissistic arse, what didn't I spot? What did I know? What did I want for next time? How do I get rid of that next time? You know, I can think of... I mean, someone I didn't employ, but they joined a team I was in. And it became clear, like day one, like minute four of day one, that they simply had no idea. I can't... I mean, let's just say they were running Facebook ads, whatever it was. Or they were running the logistic, I can't remember. And literally from that moment, she first asked a question, something like, how do I spell Facebook? And it wasn't that, but it was just like, and everything you're joking. And actually, she'd just been brilliant. She'd properly pulled the wool over the eyes of the person. She'd got this job. And it's rare, but it happens. And, you know, yeah.

Yeah, you get more right than you get wrong, but you learn next time. And that would have easily gone away if you'd done what we said at the start of, yeah, do send us your CV, but I tell you, show us a video of you running a Facebook ad. Show us what you, you know, whatever it is. And you just learn for next time to kind of, you know, get more right than you get wrong. Yeah.

And going back to the, I think this is why I spend so much time now. I'm going to say cultural, I mean, cultural for the business as in sharing the values. I'm not talking about as in culture, as in I'm only going to employ white males or whatever like that. I'm talking about if you're running a brand that's really, really big on sustainability and those kinds of things, then finding someone that share those values, they're infinitely going to be better than people that don't. Just don't give a monkey. It's like you want people who share those values in the company.

That's what goes in the job ad as well, isn't it? We are a sustainable office working towards da, da, da, da, da. And it doesn't, it's not actually part of the ad, but it's part of the ad.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's all in there. If you're getting people through the door then that don't share those values, then we've said before about the brilliant jerk scenario, right? If you get someone that is fucking shit hot at sales, right? And you need a salesperson, but they're an absolute dickhead. You will question yourself like this guy, like he's done loads of sales. It hits his targets. Like, should I hire him? Maybe we'll just see how he gets on. Just trust your gut. If he's a dickhead in the interview, he's going to be a dickhead where you won't like, just, just don't go near it. Like the brilliant jerk scenario, short term win for long term pay. If you're hiring someone that doesn't fit the culture, it's going to fit. Piss everybody else off. Let's just say you are a sustainable vegan brand, for example, right? And like, I'm not saying you only have to employ vegans, but if you've got someone in that's coming in every day, taking the piss out of vegans, walking to McDonald's and stick it in their face and like, Oh, do you want a bit of that sweetheart? Like that is not the right cultural fit for your business. Regardless how good they are at sales. Do not employ that person. There's only so long that you can like, look, yeah, you've just got to ignore that person because they're really good for the business. Because then you're those other good people who you've spent time, effort and energy putting in who really love the business aren't going to love it anymore. And I suppose the bit I was trying to say earlier is at the beginning, there are no excuses not for hiring with this level of integrity, none at all. Because it's you and you want to get people as close to your values as physically possible. Because there will be a point when they're going to be hiring people and it starts to get diluted. So don't piss in the pool early on, like it's going to get pissed in at some point, it's going to get diluted. It can't not that it's physically impossible when you start hiring like 10 people, 20 people, 100 people, 1000 people, it's going to get diluted. But try and keep it as pure as you can at the beginning. Because if you're going to cut corners with the people that you're hiring, then they're going to cut corners as well. And very quickly, you've got a very poisonous organisation full of people that don't want to work there and full of fucking dickheads.

I think it's really important to get your staff to be part of the recruitment process. I think you want to have them to have a say because one, they're going to have to work with them. Two, it sense checks what you think you think you know about them. And I think three, kind of boat rockers get expensive because if this person comes in and you're not consulting everyone and they're having to now work together, you've got that one hire could easily ruffle the backs, ruffle the backs, could easily ruffle the feathers, get the backs up, mixing my metaphors, get the backs up of two or three people. And actually, so you're one in, two out. Well, you've lost a load of money that one person is getting a cool. Well, yeah, it's just, it shouldn't be a single job. I think it should have as many different, I mean, to align, of course, but it should have as many different inputs as you possibly can with it.

Yeah.

We've spoke a lot about employers and stuff like that. If you're an employee or a potential employee, then you have a responsibility as well to be open and upfront about the stuff that you're going for. And because infinitely, that's going to be better for you. But let's just use the pure vegan company sustainable and stuff like that. If you don't even put your recycling in the right bin, you're just like, yeah, fuck it. I'll just stick everything in the black bin. I don't know why I've got that green bin or that glass bin. It's just, I use it to store God knows what in there. If you're that person, don't pretend to be someone else for the sake of that job, because you're not going to like it and you're not going to last very long either. Like it's just wasting someone's time. Like it's far better for you as the person looking for the job to actually find something that really does suit you and suit your values and things like that. I remember once seeing somebody create a CV. So like the show be this person's CV that applied for a job and I knew the people. And so I looked at the CV and it was, I wish I still had a copy of it. It was the best CV I've ever seen. Like it was creative. It had like little doodles and things on there and it had like really creative stuff. I'm just trying to remember one of the examples, like number of cakes I'd baked on a little chart and things like that for their hobbies. Like it was really like visually amazing, like fantastic. And you'd look at this and you think, I want to hire this person. Now I knew them. This is what happened. You speak to this person. I'm being mean now, but I'm going to be like zero personality completely. Like you wouldn't like it did not reflect them. Their boyfriend had done it for them. So basically their boyfriend had taken their CV and created this wonderful piece of art that created this picture of this highly creative extroverted person that would like, but you speak to them and it was like, it was just like getting blood out of stone that you could. It was just now I'm not saying that they shouldn't get a job, but they should not be projecting themselves in that manner. It's catfishing essentially. Like you're wasting everyone's time. And I know you should be always like selling yourself and putting, but do something that's authentic to you at the very least, because there's no way that person would ever be able to create that on their own. I'm not saying you can't get help and to tweak little bits here and there and get some help with when of course all of those things work. If you're replying for like that person that you were talking about earlier, like if they were replying for a Facebook manager's position and they didn't even know how to spell Facebook, like someone else has helped them out significantly with the application and they've got through the door based on knowledge that just wasn't theirs. So be authentic. It's not about like lying on your CV or, you know, how many A-levels you've got and stuff like that. It's everyone's, I don't think anyone's got a CV that's not got a line there somewhere. But bump it up a little bit just to bring it to the same level as everyone else bumping it up. Don't create something out of thin air that really isn't like you.

Everyone loses it.

It's, it's, it's everybody. It's like, it's like swiping on Tinder for Claudia Schiffer and then you, and then turning up and Joe Brand's there. It's like nothing against Joe, but although I don't find her funny as a comedian, but it, you know, it's still, it's not what I expected. Is it? It's like, I wanted Claudia Schiffer.

Right.

And I've got Joe Brand there talking about fannies and things and whatever she, like, it's just not, it's not what I wanted. It's, but equally, equally, if I was, why are you laughing? No reason. It's, I could have, I could have been looking for someone like Joe Brand and because she's pretended to be Claudia Schiffer, everybody loses. Why have you got your head in your hand?

No, no reason. No reason. Yes.

It's, it's, it's the same. It's, it's the same. It's the same in the job ad, isn't it? Be authentic. If you want, if you're going to hire some people, okay, work out exactly what the skills you need fitting, explain those kind of honestly, clearly, authentically in that job ad. So actually they know what they're getting. They know what you're looking for. They know what you need, what you don't need, therefore write it as you would speak to someone. Don't just template it. And then again, maybe that's the, what could it similarly for the, for the, the remuneration be authentic with that as well. You know what you can do, what you can't do, what can you offer? And I think, I guess maybe that, that, that, that seems like a really nice way to wrap this off. If you are thinking about hiring someone kind of authenticity from start to finish is the thing that's going to make sure you do that golden thing that we as employers need to do of get more right than you do wrong.

Yeah. Great. Great. I'm pleased we've had that chat.

So yeah. And me too.

So yes, if you're, if you're listening out there, be, be authentic, be true to your values. Don't overthink the whole process. I suppose what we should say as well is just have fun with it. Just, just, just think of it like you're telling at the very least loads and loads of people about your business. You potentially could get some customers there and yeah. Interested in your comments. If you've got any comments about anything that we've said today, then do respond and, and we'll cover those in a future podcast. You're still laughing at me. I don't know what I've done this time. So thank you very much for listening today. Paul, you've been fantastic. Thank you, Bertie.

As ever, mate, it's great to be true. Thanks for listening guys. As ever, if you can leave a review, leave us as ever, if you can leave us a review, that's

great.

Any feedback is always gratefully to receive. Send it to Bertie. It's probably for the best for the lawyers letters, that kind of thing. Thanks for listening. Have a great one and we will catch you next time on Throb. We'll see you later. Enjoy your Throb. Bye.

We'll be back next week for another edition of the Throb podcast.

If you want to find out more, you can find me at paulchapmanuk.com.

And you can find me, Bertie, at bertiecord.co.uk. Thanks again. See you next week. See you next week. See you next week.