Sales Sales Sales

Welcome to Throb, The Reality of Business podcast. Real business chat from real people without the shiny veneer of gurus anywhere near it. With your hosts Bertie Cordingly and Paul Chapman

and maybe some guests along the route, we'll talk about our experiences of running business, helping others run a business and sharing real stories based on real experience.

Thanks. Hello, Paul Chapman, as I live and breathe back again. How are you?

Mr. Cordingly. I'm very well, thank you. Very well indeed. How are you?

Yes, I am great. Great. And all the better for seeing you once again in my house.

Yes.

In the office. And we are not in the bedroom as Paul keeps spreading rumours, even though there is no video evidence to support this.

But then, of course, if we were in your bedroom, that's what you'd say.

Exactly.

You had forced me to be in that room.

Yes, I suppose I would. Anyway, before this gets awkward, let's welcome the listeners. Thank you very much for tuning in yet again.

Hello, everybody. We hope you're well.

So, Paul, as always, tell us, what are we going to talk about today?

I think, Bertie, I think we should talk about selling stuff because the truth is, the reality of the whole situation is that Kevin Costner has lied to you, Bertie, I'm afraid. Just because you build it does not mean they'll come. It doesn't matter what you do, whether it's product, whether it's service, it literally doesn't matter. You have to be selling the whole time. Literally all your time. Everything, every part of your business is a sale. Now, just a massive, waving, shiny, hairy-ass caveat on this. Let's get it out of the way to start. This is not being that person in a networking room that everybody hates. Hi, I'm Paul. Buy my stuff. We're not talking about that. And similarly, and something that winds me up most of all, that person on LinkedIn that just appears out of nowhere and wants to know if they can book some time in my diary to see if I want to buy their stuff. I do not like that person.

I don't like that person either.

That is not what we're talking about here, is it? We are, yeah, it's a completely separate issue. Maybe we should do that. Maybe we should have that kind of conversation. The reality is, unless you don't have any products, whatever that is, which is not really a business, you have to be selling. It is this demarcation between being that guy in the room sort of thing, and actually this is everything, every part of your business. The real issue we have at the moment is that every single market, regardless of what it is, to fall, all the power is now with the customer.

So therefore, we have to appeal to that customer. We have to sell across every part of the business, and that covers everything from how we look to the product in itself, what we charge for it, how we charge for it, how we deliver it, all of that kind of stuff. But you and I see this a lot, that there are a load of people that are still costnering, as we might call it, where they have a thing, they build a website, they have a product, and they open their doors, and they wait, and they end up waiting quite a long time.

They are, and they will be waiting forever, essentially, because those days of, if you build it, they will come. I don't know whether they ever really did exist. Possibly in the early days of the internet, probably like pre, you know, the dot-com bubble crash. And certainly as well, I'll tell you another place it did used to exist, but certainly doesn't anymore, was when the App Store launched. So we're talking like 2009, possibly, when that launched? Yeah, yeah. At that point then, you could launch an app, and essentially, because the App Store was that sparse, it would get downloaded. Those days have long gone. No matter what your idea is, no matter how good you think it is, how unique, how game-changing, you're going to have to sell it.

And it's hard sometimes for people to accept that when they have a new business idea, because they think, wow, this is so amazing. Like, why wouldn't you use it? And I understand why, because I've thought that, and I know other people that think that. And it's when you think of something that's so unique, of course, you're biased towards the idea, but you always have to sell it. I think what the problem is, though, is that people confuse selling, which is what you were talking about at the beginning, as in always be selling or always be closing, ABC. That's something that I was taught early on in traditional sales. I think when you think of selling, like for me, it conjures up that vision of Danny DeVito in Matilda, like the car salesman, that type of typical...

A bit of Del boy, yeah.

Yeah, exactly. And I think someone that's just peddling shit and forcing people to buy something that they don't need or something that's dodgy. And I think when you hear the word salesman, especially, I think that's the image that conjures up for me. And I think it conjures up. And people say, I can't sell, so what do I do? So, yeah, I think we need to break this down and be really crystal clear what we're talking about today.

Yeah, I think so. I think selling is the thing that stands between what you have and what you want. You know, and it is. And every part of that journey is part of the sales. You look at it, a lot of people selling will start kind of way before the product. You know, kind of, as in what it's made of, where it came from, who sourced it, all these kind of things. And all these things that are part of the sale. To do it properly, again, this comes back to something that you and I have spoken about a lot, is that you've got to have that absolute, beyond crystal clear, granular vision of who you're going to sell to, who's the target market. And then it's, what are the things that you need to do to convince, to A, let them see that you exist, let them see that you have a product that will help with an issue that they have and how they see it, and all those other bits in between. And I think this is, I've seen too many times that people will create a product, but won't sell it. They won't push it out to people. And I suppose this is the two parts of it. But just turning up in the room is not selling. You actually sometimes have to ask people to part with some money. Now, hopefully you're not saying, do you want to buy this? There needs to be a process from right at the very start, finding who is that perfect customer, getting hold of some information about them, putting something in their way to create awareness that you exist, put something else in their way to then be able to engage them, educate them about what you do, how you do it, why it's right for them or not. Let them see that part, see the thing, make their mind up, give them the information that they need to work out it's right for them. And then do that initial part of the sale. And people think that last bit there, that's the sales process, but it's not the whole thing. And again, yes, we can split it into sales and marketing, and there is probably a good kind of reference point in your mind to do that. But I think what I need people to understand, or what I'd like people to understand, is that every single part of it. So let me give you an example here. There's a guy, not that far away from him, for years he's purported to be a financial advisor who works with kind of high net worth clients. But literally everything about him is cheap, down to the business cards he used, how he dresses, how he talks, how his website looks, how his car looks. And again, all of this stuff, I can almost hear the hate coming back from people on this, but all of this is part of the sale, because you can't, if you don't look right for the part, someone can't buy a few, that sale can't take place. And again, the absolute best example of this, I was at a show in Manchester, I forget what I was speaking up there, I didn't matter, anyway. After I talked, this guy approached me, and he'd shaved half his face, literally half his face, he'd got half his face, I'd forgotten. He had his trousers on back to front, truthfully, and he only had one shoelace. And he handed me this card, and this card was, it wasn't even laminated, it was a piece of card.

I love how you're looking at the card, and the card doesn't exist.

A piece of card, and it was wrapped in sellotape, bless him. So I feel quite bad, but on this card, it told me that he was the North West's premier wealth creator. Now, I know this can't be true. That isn't, there's never going to be a sale there. And again, it's really unfair, but that's part of the sale. How you look, that's part of the sale. This kind of needs to be considered. Had he turned up in a really, I don't know, doesn't need to be expensive, but smart looking suit, some shoes, shave your full face, put your shoelaces in, and then said, look, this is a thing that I've got. At least I can take him seriously. And I think this is what we, what we're talking about, is that all of it, all of it, you've got to be, you've got to have, everything that you do is a sale. And I get that that is a mad example, but the reality is, your website will be the version of, the wrong trousers, you know, your sales process, kind of how your packaging is done. That will be the half shaved face. It's every single part of it has to add up to make sure that money exchange takes place. Yeah,

that I think that's a really good point, isn't it? With the, yeah,

I'm just sort of thinking about the whole sort of clothing thing. I'm almost thinking about what I wear. I've got my now trademark black t-shirt, blue jeans. Now I'm in bare feet with my feet up. Generally, you'll see me in, in converse. And if I, if I want to just look a little bit smarter, I'll just sling on a blazer. That is my sort of general work attire.

Yeah.

And I stick to that now, regardless of where I'm going, but I don't think I look scruffy as such. It's more, I think that's more being consistent. Would I wear that if I was going to like a wedding or going for, I don't know. Probably. Yeah, probably would.

This comes back to your target market. And again, what you do, how you do it. And this is what, this is really what we're talking about is that back into the kind of the start thing. You have to consider every part of this as a process. People will make decisions on everything they see and what they don't see about your business. I can remember doing a bit of work ages ago, like service, car servicing kind of industry. And, you know, chatting to the guys on the floor, when the reps came in suits, jackets, ties, they just think, wanker. Yeah. That's not their person. When someone comes in, I'm not saying they have to look in overalls covered in grease, but actually that open shirt, pair of jeans, they're happy to rest their laptop on a stack of tires kind of thing. That's part of this process. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what we're saying. Look, you've always got to be selling. You've always got to be, or perhaps it's not that you've always got to be selling. You've got to be, you've always got to be aware that you are. You've got to be memorable, haven't you?

But for the right reasons. And that guy clearly was memorable to you, but for the wrong reasons, you're almost going to push people away from the someone who is, yeah, I suppose that just shows almost a lack of,

yeah.

If you think the guy can't even shave or put his trousers back to the front, what the fuck is he going to do if I invest my money with him? It's, yeah, everyone's really knows what they're good at and stuff. But yeah, those first impressions I think are important. You're right. It is part of the selling process. But I think, I suppose the point I was just getting to probably very badly is you don't necessarily have to dress differently or to maybe how you would, unless you are actually dressed with your trousers on back to front. Maybe you do need to make a bit of effort. But just because you're going networking doesn't mean you have to put a suit on or something. If you are a, if you are say painter or decorator or whatever, yes, don't rock up in your overalls, but don't, you don't have to go the whole hog and go exactly the other way. Yeah.

And I think it's, at some level, this is nothing to do with how you dress, but everything to do with every part of everything is about, is, is, is giving someone a signal to make up a mind as to whether they dip into their pockets and they give you some money.

I'd like to go into like the practical things of, of networking, because I think that was, I think that was a really good thing that you said, like we've told people what not to do. If I think of networking meetings instantly, I think of business card thrusters, as I affectionately call them. Yes. So you will be talking, having a nice conversation with someone and some fucking knobhead will come up, thrust their business card. Yeah. And we take that. Now, in my early days of networking, I would just politely take them, put them in my back pocket. And then, yeah, I started to play a little game. And if anyone else did that, I'd be there, take mine and give them back the other knobhead's card. But actually I started to get a little bit more bold and it was probably one of the last networking meetings that I went to. And someone handed me, it was probably the wrong person because he was quite beefy actually. I handed me a card and like, we just take that. It's like, why? Yeah. Like why? He was like, oh, well you might need, well, whatever it is. Yeah. But why would I give them your card? And I was trying to say this in the nicest possible way. I ended up sounding like a complete and not a dick, but I was trying to help the guy. And I think I got my point across in the end, but it's like, why on earth? Think about it logically. And I was like, does this actually work for you? And he's like, yeah. And then actually it didn't work for me at all when he thought about it. But why on earth would I recommend you? Yeah. If so, if so, I don't know whether it's like a window cleaner or whatever. If someone said to me, do you know a good window cleaner? If I either know one or I don't, I'm not going to be like, oh, actually some idiot passed me his business card like 18 months ago. Let me just go and find it. Cause obviously I've saved that. Like it's gone straight in the bin or it's gone to somebody, other idiot. That's the wrong way to do it. Like it's just pointless doing that sort of stuff. Like, yes, you might come away and like, oh, I've got rid of 30 business cards, but literally you might as well have just wiped your ass with them because nothing good is going to come out of that. The correct way to do it. And I think this is what I want to get into is actually speak to people, ask questions, talk to them just like you would a normal individual. Ask them about the family, what they've done today and all that other stuff. And actually if you form that human normal connection, then naturally they will ask you. And I believe like, oh, what is it that you do? And then of course you can tell them by doing it that way. Yes. It's longer. You might get rid of, and I did the whole like a speech mark thing there. You didn't do that. I did. Yeah.

Why don't people do that for other,

I don't know. Why don't do it? Why don't you hit me? Why? Yeah.

I don't understand why people don't do that for all punctuation. Yeah. Yeah. Full stop.

You might not get rid of as many business cards. You might have got rid of five rather than 30, but those five connections that you will have will be so much more meaningful. And they would have asked you what you do. Now, actually what you might find then is that two or three of those people will actually then remember you because A, you've had a proper meaningful conversation with you, probably made them laugh, hopefully, but it doesn't have to be like that. And formed that relationship. So in that scenario, like if I had to have met you and then someone was saying, I'm looking for an outsourced CMO or whatever it is you do. I'm not sure. No one really knows. Like, do you know what? Not work with the guy. Met a lovely guy the other week. Actually, no, what'd I say that? Let's say lovely guy. Yeah. let's just go with it. Pretend it's not me. Oh, that's easy. I met this amazing guy the other week. Like, so, like really knew what he was talking about. Like, absolutely top of his game. Not worked with him directly. However, probably worth you having a chat. That is much more like, that's a real scenario. Whereas, if you just come up with your cards, if anything, if they say, oh, have you heard of that Paul Chapman? Don't go near him. Doesn't know a fucking thing. Literally handed me his business card and walked off. What? No bed.

And I think I'm not slightly disagreeing. Cause I think this is where, and again, I think personally, I think it's where a lot of people go wrong. Networking is not a necessarily a time to be memorable. If you can, not long-term memorable. If you can look great. And I think you are right. This is only a time to go and meet people and be yourself. Talk to them. I go to networking,

which I know I'm rude about it, but I do enjoy it. I love meeting people. I find it really interesting to hear from people. I've got a plan. And I think I am, I am only there to say something useful enough, memorable enough, helpful enough to allow me to go back to that person the next day. And I would love to suggest my personality is enough to meet someone once. And then they go, you know what? In three months time, someone says, I need to market a strategist. Oh, Paul, he's a guy. It just doesn't happen. Realistically. Cause you're going to meet thousands of people. So for what it's worth, my strategy here is that I will go and have less conversations, but better. And exactly that. Just, just talk about stuff life in general, because it's networking, because you're doing the right things. You'll show some interest. They'll show some interest. It will come up that you don't say, what do you do? It'll come up anyway, but it's, I will hear something. I will get them talking about their business and I'll say, Oh, that's really interesting. This and this. What about chat? And all I really want, I want to say something that is useful enough that I can then say to them. I tell you what, I've got something really good on that. Let me try some details tomorrow. Bang. That is business conversation done and cut. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And then, sorry to go, and then literally time, this is the kind of the key bit that I think works really well. That's business conversation done. Tomorrow. Tomorrow. I will send them a video, a face to camera video of me saying, Hey Bertie, it's unlikely to say this to you. Let's use someone else. Hey Sarah. Great to meet you. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Here's that thing I mentioned. Hope it's helpful. And the reason I'm doing that is twofold because if I don't do that, I'm just an email. Yeah. Okay. And in that room, they've probably met more people than just me. So I'm hoping they remember me based on an email. We know science kind of proves, hence why Facebook is so important. So it's big. People remember faces really well. I want to get my face in there. And this is the start of me being memorable. I've done the inverted commas thing as well. I don't know why. And it goes on. So literally I'm only in that room. This is everybody needs a plan what they're for in that room. I'm literally there to say something. And it's a struggle for me. Something useful enough to make it more likely that they will open my email the next day. Yep. I'm then going to, I'm going to cement that relationship again with face to camera bits. They recognize me. They're not, I'm not, they're not going flipping through the business cards. They remember my face. I'm now being useful to them. And then at some point down the line, most people, I don't know, I'm sure it has happened. I can't think of anyone that's never come back and said, thanks Paul, great to meet you. And at that point I can say, yes, blah, blah, blah, blah. Actually, I'm coming through town next week. Why don't we grab a coffee? And I do this because I know that every 10 cups of coffee I sell, I normally get six and a half bits of business from it. And that's what I'm trying to do. And again, this is, again, this is part of this wider sales conversation is what is it that you're trying to sell? I can't sell marketing services. No one understands marketing. No one gets what I do. Yeah. On the strategic side of stuff. So actually I'm not doing it. I just need to be helpful, useful. What I really want to do. If I can, I want to provide that. Oh shit moment. I want to be able to say something and go, Oh shit. Yeah. I'd not thought of that. That's enough for me. Then I can do anything. Even if I've not got something for send them, I will send them a video the next day. Hey Paul, really good to talk about that thing. Yeah. If it's useful to chat it through, it doesn't matter, but I'm in there. I'm, I am there. I'm not a thruster. Yeah. I'm just, I just want to meet people. And do you know, probably most times I go networking on the grand scheme of things. I probably don't get anything from it other than interesting people to meet, but I'm trying to meet less people and I'm trying to do it properly. And I think it's that, you know, that, that get in, get out, close the business, let's go back to being a normal human being. I think, and that's what we're saying. And that is a big part of selling. Yeah. And you, no, no, no,

but it sounds like you really understand your sales funnel process there. So essentially what you're, if you break that down, you're essentially like going to a networking meeting and you're not trying to sell your services as whatever it is that you're doing. You're literally trying to sell that meeting. You're selling the cup of coffee, right? In the same way that if you had a telesale appointment set, you'd be selling the appointment and then on the appointment you do that, the sale. So I think that's a really good way of looking at it. And you've got to understand what that is in your own sales process. But I think what we're trying to say is that you will always have to be selling no matter what you're doing to some degree, you're always going to have to be selling it and understanding what you're selling and how you're selling rather than like, it's not just going to happen. So I think, yeah, like what I was saying earlier about being memorable and stuff like that's almost like it's a nice to have and it's a bonus if that happens. But ultimately if you're, you are at a networking meeting, then if somebody is showing interest, then you need them to be closing that sale. And by what I don't mean necessarily closing the sale as in trying to do the whole thing there, but closing that part of the process, which for you is getting them to meet you for a coffee or getting their email address. You can send that next part of information over. And that's going to vary from, you know, person to person. But what is that light touch thing that you can then sell clothes? If it's genuinely a customer and you can add value to them, it is your responsibility to actually close them. The amount of people that I have met after initially speaking to them at a networking meeting, oh, I can really help them. And I've not maybe had the balls to like say, actually, look, mate, you really fucking need my help. Let's talk tomorrow. Yeah. I meet them again, 12 months later. How's business? Exactly the same. And it's not for fuck's sake. Like it's that's, and I feel responsible then. It's like, I should have told you a year ago, the stuff that you could have been doing. Let's do it now.

Maybe as we say this, maybe actually what we're, we're not necessarily people like people aren't saying selling. People aren't thinking again. I know I rant about this a lot. But people aren't thinking about it because I'm not saying my process is right. It's just a thing that works for me. And I think it's like anything. If you sit and think, what do we want to achieve in this particular situation thing?

What is it that we're actually selling? What is it? And it, because it changes everything. And I think, you know, a really good example of this is that we used to do in the old days, you used to do a lot of events, NEC, all that kind of stuff. And what was really, what? And again, I suppose I'll ask you the question, what is the point of, you know, us having a stall at an event or a stand at an event as a business? What is the point of it? It's to,

to meet and talk to people, right? Like as in, and to ultimately collect those leads. Yeah. And that's it.

All I'm there for is I am going to get in the night. I want to meet as many people, get them work out if there's any usefulness at all and get them off the stand as quick as possible. I'm not there to sell. This is, and it's exactly the same process. If I use Facebook, Facebook is where the people are. I'm not there to sell on Facebook. I'm there to use Facebook to get the data to enable me to have some conversations. And this is this kind of, this is why we talk about the selling part, but all of that is trying to sell, but you've got to work out. What is it you want to sell? And the reason I want conversations is that I know every 10, et cetera, turn to six and everything follows behind that. So you look at the testimonials on my site. It says things like, actually, I was a bit skeptical, but actually going for a coffee report was one of the best things I've ever done. So I'm actually, that's the bit I want to sell. I want people to know it is useful to take an hour out of their day to have a cup of coffee with me. Yeah. And it is, it's that kind of thing. You think actually, you know, what are the things that you need more of? I need more cups of coffee. Yeah.

And what I think the really important thing that you said there is this isn't necessarily the process that's going to work for everyone. It is what works for you. And the reason is you've gone out there and tested it. That's what works for you. Going back to like, you know, the stands at the NEC or whatever. It was like saying that you're not there to sell. That's because you understand that you are not going to close a marketing contract. If you were selling printed coffee cups that were instantly available, your purpose then is to bring them in, sell it. There is no point then in collecting business cards. And you might as well just sell it there and then. So it's understanding. And I think a lot of people make these mistakes as well. They will have what you would call like a high ticket item.

Yeah.

And then expect that people are going to click through and buy that straight from Facebook. It's not going to happen with something like, you know, it's subjected to the amount, but anything more than a few quid. I don't know. We've talked about my lightsaber. That's probably, you know, that's probably like the top limit. I don't know, 34 quid is something that I might buy impulsively from an ad. Maybe something a little bit more. Whereas my pizza oven, for example, I bought last year. That was literally from an initially like seeing an Instagram ad for me. But then I kept seeing more and more. But then actually I did research. And then I saw that a friend had once spoke to them and then eventually did go back. But it was a much more considered purchase. So the purpose of those ads wasn't like, this is the oven by now. It was like, this is how great this oven is. They'd see another one, like just about the pizzas and about the lifestyle, how you feel when you're making pizzas. And actually they were pretty accurate because I love making pizzas now. It's like my favorite hobby after masturbation.

Yeah.

It's hard to beat. Well, it's not. It's hard to beat. It's hard to beat. It's hard to beat. It's hard to beat. And this is it. And again, this is, again, this is slightly a trap, but I think it's usually, I know lots of people that don't sell to anyone they don't know. As in, they sell to their list. And they know that when they've got, I don't know, let's make up some numbers. They know when they've got a thousand people on their list, they will launch a product and a hundred people will buy it. So actually they can ignore old school, what we consider selling. Yeah. They just need to get people on the list. So actually they need to sell people onto their list and they might want to, you know, therefore they might want to give away a thing. They might want to, you know, because the things that you do to build your list are very different than the things that you do to sell something.

Exactly.

But you can't sell without a list, but they can get a list without me to sell. If that makes any sense at all. Yeah. You know, it just changes the function of the business. Again, it really made a big change to me. And again, it'll be the first to admit I'm so far away from a good business owner on this, but it changed markedly when the only thing I did was just go and have a cup of coffee with people. And it's only because I got to sit and look at the stuff that I do and think, okay, where does my business come from? What do I actually need? And the beauty of going, well, okay, I only need only 10 coffees a week. I need two coffees a day. What do I need to do that? And that's dead easy because actually in that networking room, when everyone else is being a card thrusting knob, I can just stand there next to these people, roll their eyes and just, what do you do then? Why are all these people trying to hunt you down? And then you get your chat and that. That's interesting. I wrote a book, blah, blah, blah, blah. And the books are, there's a thing to send people. That's a lovely thing. I did it the other day, completely unexpected to someone. And it's like, you're chatting about it. I wrote a book ages ago. Feel free to use it to mop up spills or whatever, but there's no way I'm not getting a cup of coffee from that. And it might not turn to a customer. I can't do anything about that yet. It's there. And you do it that way because it's very different from anyone else. You're laughing. I'm concerned.

It's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just,

500 million copies myself. Best-selling book, folks, on Amazon and other terrible retailers. But yeah, and I think this is half the problem. And again, maybe we shouldn't have tackled this topic in this kind of way because it needs so much, but it starts with that kind of, obviously who you're selling to. I'm just going to hope that people have got that, but it's that level of thought for each part of it. And actually there'll be loads of people listening to this that should not be selling their product. They're just selling, I know, I think you have a great business that do Instagram, Instagram lives and make loads of money from it. Brilliant. Boost your following. Do the stuff to get more people to follow you. Treat those followers really well. And there's so much kind of value in that. And yeah, there are some people that kind of have to do that kind of direct selling stuff, but it is okay. Look, how do you do it? I'm a massive fan of the telephone. I love the telephone. I think it pays a key part, but everybody hates cold calls, both making and receiving. I can't think of any time that someone's called me, except for the kind of African prince that I'm just waiting for the money. Now, actually, it should be with me, but no one likes doing it, but we know that getting people on the phone work. Yeah. Well, I could do it differently then. And again, while I'm on the rant, find these people, send them something nice through the post that lands on their desk, follow them up with an email. Maybe it's video kind of face to face of that kind of, Hey, you know, it's Paul thought I'd like to put a, you know, face to a name. Hope you got the chocolate. Okay. Just thought I'd introduce myself. We do a bit of work with people like you, blah, blah, blah, blah, a bit of back and forth on the email. And then you can pick up the phone and say, look, Hey Paul, it's Paul. I'm the guy that's been badgering you. Weirdly, I'm actually past your office next week. Do you fancy having a coffee? And there is, there is a cold call. It's a sales process, but every single part of it. And I think what we're getting at amongst many other things, that people only think of that sales process as that phone cally bit, but you've got to do the work that allows that phone call to not be rejected. And that's why we're into that. Look, you've always got to be selling every part of it that you do. If you just smash away on the phone, I'm sure there are industries it works for, but ask yourself, when was the last time you loved? And it just, yeah, it just doesn't happen.

And those days, again, when we speak about if you build it, they will come. Those days have gone. My early jobs were in call centers. So one of the first things that I was doing was, ringing up BT customers, selling them, well, so it was free, like selling them friends and family. I don't know if that's still a thing now. Select services. So things like call waiting, call a display. And then like the big one, the big money spinner where you got like 12 quid for it, was like selling a second line. But that was, but everyone spoke to you then. Like I remember it was, there was very few hangups, very few fuck offs. It was like, everyone spoke to you and everyone want like, and I've done tele sales again for different industries. Like I can't even remember what I've done and had good success with it. And, but I couldn't imagine doing it now. Certainly residential, possibly business. I don't know. Yeah. I think the game has changed a lot, but you don't necessarily need to do that stuff because the talk, like there's people complain about Instagram and Facebook and the algorithms and all this other stuff, but let's put it into perspective, right? It's a free fucking platform that people are literally addicted to. Yeah. Like you can't, like I can't pick up my phone without instantly like just opening Instagram and just looking at something because that's just the way that the world is now. And it's program. If you think of it like that, it's a free platform. And why are people doing it? They want to be entertained essentially, or they want to procrastinate and get the boredom out. So if you're going on there and just posting by my shit, that's not fucking entertaining. I'm going to scroll. I'm going to unfollow and do all of that stuff. Go in there, capture attention, do something entertaining. But it is like going back to the cliches, pushing yourself out of your comfort zone, do something a little bit different. Then you're going to get people's attention then. And then once people have your attention, they start following you. There is nothing wrong at that point from them telling them what you do. And this is what people forget. You've either got really highly entertaining accounts that then don't explain what they do.

Maybe we're guilty of this on this podcast.

Because I was thinking earlier, what is my sales funnel, right? And it's actually, I get people onto my daily email list. And then from there, then I will sell them my shit. But I'll send out a daily email, which is entertaining. Maybe there's a call to action, like maybe once every few emails or something, it'll just be there in the PS. That is my strategy. Have I ever mentioned those emails on this podcast? Probably not. We're just as, you know, we're as guilty as this is anybody. But going back to Facebook and Instagram, they are free platforms that if you use them correctly in the way that people want to consume that content, then you can capture their attention. And once you've got their attention, then you can tell them what you do. In the same way that when we got back to that networking meeting, have a conversation with someone, get them to like you or just be yourself or whatever. And if that relationship's there and they ask you, then tell them. Because if you can genuinely help that person, now I really get back to this, you have a responsibility to do that. If your product service can actually make their life better, then you're not doing your job correctly unless you get that across. And I think with selling, it always goes back to if you believe in what you do and you genuinely enjoy it and you think that a service or something is going to make someone's life better, you will naturally sell it anyway. And we've had these conversations before, like if you've seen a TV program that you like, or maybe there's a restaurant you've been to or whatever it is, I will naturally sell that to you because I believe in it. And I think that you should try it. Or going back to pizzas, Paul, come around, try my pizzas. Oh, I don't want to. They look a bit shit or whatever, but I believe in them and I believe you're going to enjoy those pizzas. And you should. I look forward to this. Yeah.

So you've got to think about that with your own stuff as well. If you're going out there doing this day in, day out, like if you don't believe in yourself, then I suppose that's a bigger problem. But if you are, then ask people for that sale, but don't just ask people for that sale before you've explained what it is, what you do. Yeah,

it is the best sales. Obviously they happen themselves, but you are asking, you are asking for that sale from the moment you enter their consciousness. Yeah. Yeah. And that is, yes, they need to know you exist. Yes. They need to not be entirely put off by what it is that you do. Yes. They've got to understand what you do. Yes. They've got to understand kind of how you do it. And I think these are all the bits that, that you need to sit and break down and, and you know, whatever it is that you sell, you've got to, you've got to be aware of this and you've got to be able to get clear on what is that process start to finish? Because at any point, if the person buying it doesn't get it, doesn't feel it, doesn't see it, they'll just go. Yeah. And you have to make that process easy. You think of how many, I can't, because examples, I can think, you know, when I first moved to Nottingham, somebody asked, said, I should join this thing. I thought, this is a good thing. I will join this thing. It's the thing I want to join. But for me to join this thing, I had to go to the internet, print something off, put it in an envelope, put it in an envelope with a check and a stamp and a, and a, and a, and a, and you just don't do it. And it's, it's something I actually really want to do. And again, it's, you've got to make this easy. And I think a big part of this, you have to understand people are selling is how do your customers buy? How do they want to buy? What is the process look like for them? Now I can think of people that buy cars online now, and I can think of people that go and would never consider buying a car online. They want to go and see it, sniff it, sit in it. One guy in particular, he's probably had golfs his whole life. If this is a new golf, he'll buy it because he knows what golfs are.

Yeah.

And you have to appeal to different things. But if your target market is an online bet is a kind of a touchy feely one, and you're only going down the online, you've lost it. And that's why this is what we're talking about. It all has to, it all has to align. And that's why we're saying, right, from the very start, everything about you, it, the product, the whole work, it's a sale. It is. It really is.

It's always about selling.

And I think just while I'm on that sort of semi rant, I think the big thing that people forget is to sell to their customers. The best possible kind of buying signal is when someone's buying your stuff. Anyone that has bought what you do, sell them some more because everything you need to know about, this is you and your, your pizza stuff. If you bought your flour, they should be selling your adverts for tomatoes, meat, cheese, and you,

it's their peel. It's a pizza peel. It's called. Pizza peel. Pizza peel. And yeah, and that's, that is exactly what, you know, happens. It wasn't a, I think there's different ways of doing it. There's their forced upsell, which is like we've spoke before, like the McDonald's. Do you want fries with that? As in it's a deliberate action, but equally you can upsell just by having it really crystal clear what you're selling, right? As in what else you're selling. So yeah, with that pizza, for example, I'd gone online to buy some pizza flour from what I thought was a flour supplier. Whereas actually, because everything was really then cleared as, Oh, they also do these tomatoes that I've been trying to source forever and did find some locally. And was just like, I had my pants pulled down over the price of them. And then found this cheese that I couldn't find anywhere. And then at the start, by the time my 15 pound bag of flour, it was a big bag of flour. It was like 90 quid in the end because I'd spent all this stuff. Just simple things like some websites, for example, as soon as you click buy, you're instantly taken to the payment screen. Whereas you're just having a shopping basket and then displaying other things, just very subtle ways of doing things can actually then put your other products front and center. Because if someone is buying pizza flour, the chances are they're making pizzas. So even if they did start as a pizza flour supplier, then of course people are going to want those extra items. As you say, the pizza peels, whatever. And they do sell pizza peels. It's just, I thought they were quite expensive and I've already got three.

That's probably all you need. Yeah. For one pizza. But yeah, I think it is. I think people get lost in this selling thing and it becomes like that. Just sell, sell, sell, sell, sell. Well, I think that's not it. But, and if you are not actively asking people for money, you're going to be always on the back foot. Yeah. And I think this is the, this is the thing. People don't sell to their existing customers where they are. It is the best person because you know everything you need to know about them to sell. And this isn't, again, this is not smash, smash. This is exactly that. Look, did you know we did this? What about that, Paul? Hey, we've just launched this. This might go really well with that. And I think this is, this is the most expensive kind of part of the sales process is the marketing, like the pre. But once you've got a customer, you sell them again and again and again and again. But there has to be a process for that. That can't just be, if they feel they're having their pants pulled down on this, then you've lost them and you've got a load of bad will out there.

Yeah.

But actually having a nice process, thank you for purchases, little extras, all these little bits and bobs that you can do. These are investments in a future sale. If you can get and keep a customer, there is money there for life because you know enough about them to sell them the next thing. Yeah. You know, because this pizza company can sell you pretty much anything food and drink now because they know enough about you. I mean, I like nice tweed jackets. I do. I've not noticed. Have you not? No.

You haven't got one on today. I haven't. Yes, you've taken the piss, aren't you? Anyway,

get them from a particular kind of brand I like. You think, I've never had any contact from them. You know, whereas what they could say is, hey, Paul, we've got some new jackets coming in next week. Why don't you come over Friday night? We'll have a few beers. You can have a look before they go on the peg, blah, blah, blah, blah. And whilst I'm there, they might show me some shoes. I'm like, because they know all this stuff about me. They've got everything that they need, but they don't. They're just leaving me to think, oh, I fancy a new jacket. Where do I get it from? And a lot of this is control of the conversation. And a lot of this is actually having the systems and the processes that will enable you to do this. But the overall bit is, you just need to sell more.

There's always going to be an opportunity somewhere. It's very easy to see from the outside. And that's sometimes where my job feels really easy. We'll have a conversation with someone and you'll, going back to our cliches, like the low hanging fruit, it's like, have you actually asked your existing customers? No, I haven't. And I'm now thinking, I was almost just drifting off then, just thinking about my own opportunities. I can think of a handful of clients that actually probably need a lot more time. And I've not given them an easy way to upgrade, so we speak. It's almost, I don't talk, we'll just do it. And I think actually, they probably do need a lot more. I haven't made that clear enough for them or even made the offer. So I think everybody makes those mistakes. Everybody doesn't really think through that process. But if you've got someone that is genuinely enjoying what you're offering them, be it a product or service, it's much easier to sell to them because you already have that relationship.

The cost is sunk on this. All the kind of the acquisition cost is sunk. And it's so easy. It's literally two things. It is a reminder in some format in your world to do this. Yeah, that you need to go back. It is making sure that actually, once you've got a customer, you treat them brilliantly. You love them. You over deliver. So actually that day that you pick up the phone to one of your people and say, you know, Hey Paul, I've just been thinking, I've just done this and this for a client. I immediately thought of you, what we chatted about last time. I think we ought to have this conversation. Yes, there is a cost attached to that, but actually I think it'll dis and this. And that is, that's just easy money. That's not anything complicated. It just needs doing. But that sale that you've asked for in October actually started when they first bought in January, whatever it is. And it's just a thing. Anyway, hopefully today's podcast is useful to people. We've gone all around the stuff, but I think if I could do anything, I want people to almost raise awareness of selling across one. Everything that you do is selling. Yeah. Two, you probably need to be more proactive about actually saying, shall we do this? I can think of one, one example. And this lady, she's brilliant. She just, she got people from all over the country to come to a room for free, laid on a massive thing and just bottled the sale at the end. And all she needed to say was great. Would you like some more help with this? And it was also put up, but she was just, she was really scared about making that final leap. And I think that's a reality. That's a reality for kind of people with that. But I think there is that. It is a constant thing. Everything about your business is part of that sales process. And you need to be doing it for lots of us, you and me, as you think of it here, we are leaving money on the table. Yeah, absolutely. And I think there are, when you were saying,

I hope that people listen to this and make them think. It's made me think about my own business, just having this conversation. So hopefully that is, that is going to happen. So if you are listening to this and thinking, oh yeah, there are those bits. I think the most, and then also there will be people that will be listening and you will be thinking, I can't think of any ways I can make my sales process better. I'm sure there are ways, but that's maybe where you need to get that outside help. You've talked to somebody about it. I think the most dangerous ones is where you think, oh yeah, this all makes sense, but this doesn't apply to me.

Yes.

Because my business is going to be different because my business is so unique, whatever. And it's now, let's just go right back to the beginning. Like I have not seen any exceptions to this rule whatsoever. Like we've got some really good guests coming up on this podcast so far, which we're not going to, we're not going to name names just yet, but I really want to delve into this more because you could look at these products and services that these individuals are offering. I think, oh yeah, the idea was that good or I've had the idea. And this is what happened with fill my belly. Like people would say to me like years later, oh, I have the idea. I should have launched it. It's like, what do you think I did? Just build a fucking website and turn it on, which actually was my naive idea of how I thought it was going to work. Isn't that what you did? Yeah. I'll build a website, turn it on. Everyone's going to, like custom, of course, everyone's going to want to order online. Of course, restaurants are then going to be clamoring to join it. I'll automate the whole process. Everything will just be sent automatically. I'll just sit back and then just wait for the money to come in. Easy.

Do you know what? It is easy. You could have done exactly that provided you've done the pre-work. If you'd spent all your time getting 20,000 restaurants and say, look, something really exciting is coming. We don't want to tell you about it, but you're going to love it. And just drip them along, drip them along. Then actually you could have made the website, turned it on, told them, and you would have got the sales. Yeah.

You would have only got the early adopters at that point. But yes, absolutely. Yes. That's one way of doing it. And this is a very common, we're not really going into the smoke testing sort of stuff, but the way of testing, essentially it's your pre-launch, right? Of selling. Dropbox. Great example. So to build Dropbox, Dropbox, the cloud storage. To build something like that, I can't remember when it was at launch, but we're going back many years, is it was groundbreaking. Storage wasn't as cheap as what it is now. So something like a cloud storage, it's going to be hugely expensive, hugely complicated. And actually it really did solve a genuine problem. So what the founders of Dropbox did is they just had the idea for Dropbox and created a video of what Dropbox will do and how it will work. Lovely. Launched this video on all the like tech websites and everyone went fucking crazy for it. And they got 75,000 signups for Dropbox before Dropbox was even a thing. So then what you have is you've got 75,000 people that have literally said, we want this fucking product. When is it launched? And that's a way to sell. When we're going back to that idea, the people of Dropbox have said, yeah, if we do that, someone else can go and build Dropbox because we don't own anything. And essentially, yes, people could, but it wasn't their vision. It wasn't their product. And it very, I'm not saying it doesn't happen and it can't happen. Of course it physically can, but the likelihood of it happening, I would rather someone try and rip off an idea. And I say, try that someone has gone out there and tested and proved, it's going to be right because they're then validating that your idea is good as well. Then go ahead. Cause they could have built Dropbox and it'd been a massive flop. And then the amount of time, effort, energy, money, cash, hiring developers that would have gone into that with no customer. It wouldn't have worked. Services like Dropbox, Google, all of those things, they've all tested products first. They've all got people interested in them. They are not overnight successes. The products that we use today have, you know, built over time. Yeah. And Dropbox has been available for years. Like iPhones now, everyone's got an iPhone or Android. 2007, 2008, that came out and it was groundbreaking at the time, but nobody wanted one. People laughed at it. Like, you know, so,

it's,

it doesn't happen overnight and you have to sell. Yeah. Yeah.

And it has to be a conscious effort. It's back into that. Your ability to make money from the thing you do has very little, there is very little bearing on that from the quality, the thing that you have. The only thing that makes a difference is your ability to sell that product. Yeah. And that comes from everything. So I've got a tricky one for you. Can you think of any examples that we can push people towards that they can go and look at? I think that is a really good sales thing. As in what? A sales? Yeah. Like a product, anything that you've seen. So, you know, can I start off to tell you, I know, I think, I don't know if I've spoken about it before, but painter jackets, I just think, are the greatest thing in the world. I was told about them from a friend,

which is a beautiful thing. Painter.

P-A-Y-N-T-E-R. So is it,

are these jackets for like painters and decorators? No, no.

Because that would be P-A-I-N. Okay.

It might just be a plan on words. And I don't know if you've noticed that I can't spell at all. You read my emails.

I open your emails.

Anyway, so painter, painter jacket, honestly. So one friend told me about them. He told me a bit about what they're about. I went and looked at it and I was just hooked, fascinated. I absolutely loved everything about them. Opened all the emails. And because what they did, they created a thing, their sales process, for want of a better phrase, they created a thing that I really wanted to be part of.

Yeah.

And it had all the good things. It had scarcity. It had exclusivity, massively sustainable. It felt like you were part of a thing. I found myself watching videos about wool being milled or whatever the phrase is. Right. And honestly, it was put on, and the literal, the first chance I got the opportunity to buy, there's my money. And this was money up front for a jacket I didn't receive for, I don't know, six, seven, eight months. But everything that they did was really good. Attention was got. Loads of social proof. They are treating people well. They are making people want to talk about this. They're making people want to share. And, you know, we could do a whole kind of podcast on that. But every part of it, they just bring you in, they bring you along. It is so, it feels so personal. It feels like it's this thing that you just, and I love it. I absolutely, I love the product. But the, the sell was everything from the first time I looked at the website. If the website then doesn't match up with that, it's on the back foot already. And then if you go, yeah, you know, pop up, do you want to be part of the email? Yes, I do. Now, if that email was sales wanker email, everything's blown out of the water again. And there's a sales process as an example. And again, the big caveat here, guys, as always, I'm not saying that works for everyone, but the process that they are doing is exactly the same as the process you need to sell. Well, cars, cats, fish, a double base. Yeah. Or a shed.

I suppose this is one of the questions. When do we start separating sales and marketing? That's a really good marketing strategy, essentially.

But marketing is part of the sales process. There's a different word for it. Yeah. And I, yeah, and this is, this is the question.

What is the difference between sales and marketing? And I think a lot of the time they should be in sync. So when I think that companies, they will have a marketing department. And then they will have a sales department. And almost those two things are separate in the same way you have product. And when I talk about product in this context, I'm talking about product, like website design, the actual products. Yeah. And then you will have marketing. And sometimes those departments aren't in sync either. So essentially like you would have a new product, like a new feature for a website that's then just chucked over the fence to marketing and launch this rather than the other way around. And I think sales and marketing, sales, marketing products, whatever, all need to be working together so that you are selling things that people actually want rather than what you think people might like.

Yeah.

I believe that sales and marketing should, are essentially the same thing.

Or, yeah, you always should be considering one when doing the other. So if you're marketing something, it's like, okay, that's great. You've done all this awareness content. How then are you going to activate? How then are you going to turn that into an actual acquisition? Yeah, I think so. Cause I'd be the same.

I think I would be suggesting there that I think they are two, two things, they're effectively, they're two parts of the same thing, but I do think it makes a lot of sense quite often for them to be functionally separate because people that are actually good at that, doing that, Hey, blah, blah, blah, blah. Is it worth us having a chat? Or that's very often the skillset needed for that is very different from the skillset needed. To do the other stuff, not always. And there's lots of people I can think of that do it very well, but I think that marketing and let's cut to the crap. Everything in business is only ever about making a sale because if you're not bringing any revenue in, there is no business. Yeah. So every part of it is a sale, which is kind of what we talked about today. The marketing is a function of that customer service is a function of that. It's something that enables that sale. You look at the people that keep your shop clean. It is a function of that because you can't walk into a dirty shop and lie, and want to buy it. To close this out then, I think for me, I think there's different bits. I think everybody needs to understand that every single thing in the business is a sales process or part of the sales process. And as such, everybody needs to look at every single thing in their business actively, not passively, about how that contributes to the sales process. And actually think, you know, and that's what kind of brings us back to that. It always be selling. We are getting people to acknowledge that everything is part of a sales process because like it or hate it, there is no business without a sale. There's no money coming in. So everything, every single part of the business only ever drives towards the sale because otherwise it's not a business. Okay. That's got a part. So you've got to understand that every part of it plays its part in that. And every one of those parts needs to be thought of as an active part of a process, not as just a, okay, we make really nice food. People will come for that. Or our service is really great. People will come for that. And I think that's the big bit that we talk about. Those that Costner are not going to win here.

I was just thinking, do people even know like that?

What was that? Field of Dreams? Field of Dreams. Yeah. If you don't, then a lot of these references aren't going to be. Go and check it out. Man builds baseball field in his yard. Someone's saying, if you build it, they will come. Yeah. A faceless voice says, if you build it, they will come, which is great for baseball fields because they did come in the droves. It's less good if you run a business. Spoilers. And that becomes your strategy. Exactly. Yeah. So that's, yeah,

that film is in no way giving out business advice. We were saying earlier about marketing and things. There's loads and loads of people with hundreds of thousands, millions of followers that actually, that doesn't, that isn't a business unless you've got something to sell. It's great that you're taking pictures of your ass and stuff like that, and everyone's liking it, and you're really popular, but you still need then something to sell, something that's meaningful rather than just something like shit supplements or fucking keto, whatever, wank shit that doesn't work. And all that bollocks. Like, you just, you can do something meaningful with that. So if you've got those followers, then, and you want to be running a business, having, yeah, having the followers that isn't a business, it's a whole, I'd rather have less followers that are much more engaged than loads of followers that actually do nothing. So yeah, don't get caught up with the vanity metrics and all that sort of stuff. You just, yeah, I've got a hundred thousand followers. Yeah. And what do you sell, mate? It's nothing. And it really does mean nothing. So yeah, it's very important to separate your, understand what your, the whole sales funnel is. If you're going to get those, if you're going to get those followers, how are they going to buy from you? Yeah. What's the, yeah,

what's the process behind it and make sure you're doing it. So don't just gather the followers, give the followers a thing to do. And then we were chatting earlier about, about something where actually there may well be bridges. So actually the first thing you need to do is take those, and let's say you're a fitness person, take those hundred thousand followers and work out how many are real. So effectively, Hey guys, a lot of you have asked, so I'm going to produce this, this one-off worksheet. If you'd like it, let me know. I'll email it to you, whatever it is. Yeah. And then from those, you then got, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Actually, some of you have said, we'd like a bit more help with this. I'm going to do a paid for course. And that's 25 quid. And then, okay. And some of those people you're going to say to them, you know, there's now this. So if the thing you actually want to sell is, let's just say it's a one-on-one PT. There may well be three or four different things in there, but you've got to have a process. Cause if you go to that a hundred thousand list of people that their only contact is having seen you wiggle on Instagram and you go and offer them, you know, 500 quid an hour PT, that's not a cell. That's just pie in the sky. But actually you walk these people through these little baby steps. Okay. That starts to become a sales process. So even though you think the cell is the one-to-one PT, actually the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,

the, the, the,

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to have that next step, cut it down, leave it, go back to being a human being.

So thank you very much, Paul. Thank you, I enjoyed that.

Let's do it again sometime. Well, thanks for listening, guys. Do all the normal stuff. And, yeah, we'll see you next time. Thank you very much. Goodbye.

We'll be back next week for another edition of the Throb Podcast.

If you want to find out more, you can find me at paulchapmanuk.com.

And you can find me, Bertie, at bertiecord.co.uk. Thanks again. See you next week.